[David Davis]

Seeing several renovations and now being part of one I'm curious how many of you have lost loved ones (golf holes in this case) to renovations that you were not or perhaps your club was not happy with?

Please explain what was done and why you didn't like it or approve.

[Keith OHalloran]

The course that comes to mind is a not one that is world renowned, but it is my local public named Pine Hills in Manorville, NY.  The fifth hole is a short par 4 (it had been a par 3 a long time ago).  The fifth is a long dog leg left par 4 which is the number 1 handicap. The Seventh is a longer par 4. The fifth hole was a perfect time for a short 4. They have a pond short left of the green, and it is about 10 feet below the green surface. The green sloped hard from right to left. There was a bunker on the right about 70 yards short of the green. If you tried to drive the green, you would have to carry the bunkers on the right, and have the ball roll up, using the slope  to get on the green. If you pulled your shot, you would put the pond into play. The safe play was to hit a hybrid and a wedge, but the green sloped hard, and you had to be precise. The club thought that the severity of the greens was holding up play, meanwhile the course plays in over 4 hours no matter what. They decided to flatten the green totally. They did not bring in a construction crew, but decided to do this themselves. They took all the character out of the green, and made a rock hard surface that can not be held. If that is not bad enough, they put an oval flat bunker right in front of this new green, so that you cannot run a driver (or anything else) on.   The icing on the cake is that they screwed up the construciton so bad that they had to close the new green down for the season to work on it. They took a nice hole with some character and made it awful.

[Tom_Doak]

Oh my God ... there were so many of these when I started walking around great golf courses thirty years ago, that I don't know where to begin.

Thankfully, quite a few of them have been reversed over the past 15 years.  The first of those that I was involved in personally, was the von Hagge rebunkering of The Camargo Club.  Just thinking about it is like hearing fingernails on a blackboard!

[Will Lozier]

Oh my God ... there were so many of these when I started walking around great golf courses thirty years ago, that I don't know where to begin.

Thankfully, quite a few of them have been reversed over the past 15 years.  The first of those that I was involved in personally, was the von Hagge rebunkering of The Camargo Club.  Just thinking about it is like hearing fingernails on a blackboard!

Tom,

Have you finished with all of the bunker work at Camargo?  How deep in scope and far along in progress is the restoration plan?

Cheers

[Mike Hendren]

The Eden.

[Mark McKeever]

The 15th at Bethpage Black.  The green was flattened out and will never be the same for me.

Mark

[BCrosby]

11th at ANGC. Followed by the 17th and 7th at ANGC.

ANGC is the only top 50 course that has added a significant number of trees over the last 15 years.

I'd guess that the other 49 have net fewer trees today than they did 15 years ago.

Bob

[Matthew Rose]

#7 at Augusta is pretty bad.

[John Kavanaugh]

14th at Bandon Trails. A couple of golf writers get their panties in a bunch and the green is vanillaized. Then some fat guy dies walking to the tee and they install a motorized trolley. Stop the madness!!!

[Dan Kelly]

I loved the 17th at Hazeltine, in its original configuration -- 344 yards, playing uphill between stands of trees, to an inverted saddle fairway, and turning right to a green with ponds short right and short left, with a runway up to the green between them.

The pros hit FW woods and long irons to the fairway, then short irons to the green.

A wonderful hole, which produced the most memorable shot of the 1970 US Open: a second-round punched 5-iron from the left woods by the eventual champion, Tony Jacklin, which climbed up the runway to birdie distance -- a birdie he made.

Rick Shefchik can tell you more about it -- including the PJ Boatwright flip-flop, which he recently unearthed.

I guess a lot of the pros (or maybe just the one pro who mattered) didn't like the hole. Which goes to show: Don't listen to the pros' opinions -- particularly when they're complaining about the possible advantage of hitting something other than driver on a par-4 hole.

[BCrosby]

John -

What changes have been made to the 14th green at BT?

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

John -

What changes have been made to the 14th green at BT?

Bob

When the hole first opened it rewarded those who hugged the left side near the woods and penalized those who bailed right. The green has been widened so everyone has an equal chance for par no matter where the drive.

[Pat Burke]

John -

What changes have been made to the 14th green at BT?

Bob

When the hole first opened it rewarded those who hugged the left side near the woods and penalized those who bailed right. The green has been widened so everyone has an equal chance for par no matter where the drive.

Does everybody get a trophy if they finish the hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Oh my God ... there were so many of these when I started walking around great golf courses thirty years ago, that I don't know where to begin.

Tom, A good starting point might be the 19 greatest holes that no longer exist that you cited in your book.

Montclair has a few holes that were altered, some to make room for tennis courts, ditto Metropolis.
Others for reasons unbeknownst to me.

The 15th at Preakness Hills comes to mind with the 13th not far behind.

Thankfully, quite a few of them have been reversed over the past 15 years.  The first of those that I was involved in personally, was the von Hagge rebunkering of The Camargo Club.  Just thinking about it is like hearing fingernails on a blackboard!

[Mark Pearce]

Good call on the Eden.

[Ben Stephens]

Good call on the Eden.

Mark,

I agree as well. The Eden is a bit of a 'hotch potch' golf course. Great Colt holes and weak Steel holes - I cant believe a pond was put in - could have they put it on the side rather than in the line of play

Another is Luffenham Heath - the driveable short 8th was lengthened from 285 to 330 - and I am not a fan of the new green which does not fit in with the rest of the course greens. The new bunkering is too repetitive. Hole 10 is a improvement but it seems to feel an another course rather than blend in.

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

I spose Hoylake must be mentioned in that the use of OOB was systematically removed from Dowie and Royal.  Though both decisions could be said were taken for good reasons.  In the case of Dowie, the OOB was "artificial" in that thee was more space left of the green.  Royal was altered to create space for spectator movement behind the green and to stop balls sailing onto the road (though I am a bit dubious about this having been a serious problem).  Still, Hoyake to me was the one club which embraced OOB as a hazard and its awful shame to have te character of the course (agree with the concept or not) altered to make accommodations for the golfer.  I think in some cases where history and character are involved, the golfer should bend to the will of the course rather than the other way around.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

The third at Harrison Hills?  Never saw the original,  but the other 8 original holes are so good I'm dying to  know what's missing.  This hole also tied together what was surely in the discussion for best 9 hole course on the planet.  The course certainly wasn't ruined by renovation, Tim Liddy did an admirable job with the task he was given, I just can't help feeling that the club should have left well enough alone.

[Chris_Blakely]

The third at Harrison Hills?  Never saw the original,  but the other 8 original holes are so good I'm dying to  know what's missing.  This hole also tied together what was surely in the discussion for best 9 hole course on the planet.  The course certainly wasn't ruined by renovation, Tim Liddy did an admirable job with the task he was given, I just can't help feeling that the club should have left well enough alone.

I never saw the third either; however, I wondered the same thing after playing the original 9.  I would have preferred a longer walk between the new 9 and old rather than eliminate an original Langford hole on that course!!

Chris

[Andy Troeger]

9th hole at Point O'Woods comes to mind for me.

[Tom_Doak]

The third at Harrison Hills?  Never saw the original,  but the other 8 original holes are so good I'm dying to  know what's missing.  This hole also tied together what was surely in the discussion for best 9 hole course on the planet.  The course certainly wasn't ruined by renovation, Tim Liddy did an admirable job with the task he was given, I just can't help feeling that the club should have left well enough alone.

I never saw the third either; however, I wondered the same thing after playing the original 9.  I would have preferred a longer walk between the new 9 and old rather than eliminate an original Langford hole on that course!!

Chris

The problem with the old 3rd hole was that it played around O.B. in the L-shaped corner of the property, where some of the new course is now located.  My memory of it is a little fuzzy because I only saw it once, and it seemed so crazy.

The tee was at the back of the second green, perhaps 200 yards from the property corner on the inside left, and then 90 degrees left along the property line for another 300-350 yards to complete the par 5.  If you didn't want to try and carry the O.B. and aimed right instead, there was fairway, but you were down in a deep hollow, with no line of sight to the rest of the hole.

As Jud mentioned, the expansion certainly did not ruin the course, but it did ruin its main claim to fame as being one of the best nine-hole courses in the country.  It happens often enough that it's relevant to this thread.  Rolling Rock was another such casualty.

[Jud_T]

Tom,

Thanks.  OK maybe not the best hole lost but it still sounds like the kind of quirky hole that fit right in with the rest of that rollercoaster.

[Joel_Stewart]

The 8th hole at Olympic Club. 

Ruined by a superintendent who has no respect for classic architecture. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

How about the 2nd and 3rd at Yale.

[Tom Fagerli]

The ninth hole at Ridgeview Country Club in Duluth MN. There was a fantastic peanut shaped green perched up in the air surrounded by bunkers. You could drive it to to bottom and risk having a downhill lie to an uphill green or lay back off the tee and have a level lie with a six or seven iron. When the wind blew it was daunting.
Knocked it down in an odd renovation plan and was replaced by a bad green with way too much slope back to front and left to right. It is almost as if they said "we need a new green now that we tore the other down so let us put it here because it is cocktail hour!"

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