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Doug Bolls

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Play It In Reverse
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:48:56 PM »
I am wondering why we do not see any courses designed to play with 2 (or more) routings.  The best known example is TOC which is set up to play clockwise and counterclockwise the first weekend in April.  I took a group of 8 there a few years ago where their first time on TOC was the reverse routing followed by the modern routing.  What a great weekend!
We used to have a tournament at my home course called "FLOG" where we played the course backwards - start in the #1 fairway and play to the 17th green, then to the 16th, etc.  We had a few trees to hit over, and a street to cross, but it was great fun.
I am thinking of courses recently developed on a fairly defined chunk of land where this kind of routing could be accomplished:  Whistling Straights, Commonground, one of the Bandon courses and even something as mundane as mile square in SoCal. 
What are the architectural impediments that preclude such a versatile configuration?

noonan

Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 11:52:00 PM »
My home course is played in reverse for winter golf - they put holes in the tee boxes

Tom_Doak

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2012, 08:06:03 AM »
Doug:

It's very hard to design a course that works equally well both ways ... and if it works better one way, that's the way the golfers want to play it.

I've thought for years about trying to design a reversible course, it's on my bucket list.  It would have to be a fairly flat property for it to work well.

But, really, the few courses that have tried this are seen as gimmicky.  I think the only way to avoid that trap would be not to tell anyone the course was reversible until the day after opening day, when you set it up backwards!

Ross Harmon

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2012, 01:28:28 PM »
There was a thread a few months ago about Lester George's design for the Dormie Club practice course. 10 holes that can be played in either clockwise or counter clockwise fashion.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50913.0.html

Blake Conant

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2012, 01:55:55 PM »
East Potomac Park Golf course used to be reversible, but after several renovations it no longer is.  Former UGA grad Mike McCartin wrote a pretty comprehensive thesis on the history of the course and actually proposed a redesign to make it reversible. 

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 05:44:44 AM »
I am not sure that TOC is really reversible these days, there are few howler holes now since they let more rough grow inside the course. The holes backwards to 6, 5, 1 greens are quite poor. Tom makes the perfect point, one routing will always stand out as BEST and that will be the one that gets the play, everything else then becomes sub standard.

For a reverseable to really work its needs the out/back configuration, or at least holes as pairs and the greens need to lay overall pretty flat front to backish, its likely that a lot of bunkers are out of play for one course. Other than us GCA geeks you do get to wonder what the point is really. Why would you really want to go out and play second rate stuff?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Ben Voelker

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 07:37:12 AM »
I am not sure that TOC is really reversible these days, there are few howler holes now since they let more rough grow inside the course. The holes backwards to 6, 5, 1 greens are quite poor. Tom makes the perfect point, one routing will always stand out as BEST and that will be the one that gets the play, everything else then becomes sub standard.

For a reverseable to really work its needs the out/back configuration, or at least holes as pairs and the greens need to lay overall pretty flat front to backish, its likely that a lot of bunkers are out of play for one course. Other than us GCA geeks you do get to wonder what the point is really. Why would you really want to go out and play second rate stuff?

To further Adrian's comments, I have called TOC the last few years to ask about the Old Course in Reverse event and it has not been offered for at least 5 years.  From what I can gather, they have no intentions of holding the event in the future.

Mark Smolens

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 10:32:30 AM »
Calling Mr. Schmidt, calling Mr. Schmidt, no link to the series of posts re the Reverse Jans? :o

Jim Sherma

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 11:06:16 AM »
Wasn't Westchester CC originally designed to be played as a reverse course?

SPDB

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
Until fairly recently Pine Valley conducted a late fall/early winter tournament where they played the course in reverse (but, obviously, not according to any reverse routing advanced by any of the course's architects).

Garland Bayley

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 12:32:13 PM »
Jon Wiggett has built and opened a reversible course. A search in the discussion group might come up with the details.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Crane

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 01:22:43 PM »
Wrote a brief post in the past about playing Pocantico Hills on the Rockefeller Estate a reversible William Flynn design, the link is below:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=40727.0


You may want to look at Aerial views of the course to get a sense of the design values.


_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Howard Riefs

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 01:33:28 PM »
Calling Mr. Schmidt, calling Mr. Schmidt, no link to the series of posts re the Reverse Jans? :o

On his behalf.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21055.0.html

photos start on pg. 3
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38096.0.html


Including this gem...



Here is Smolens, opting for the safer ground-game option. McDade, in the second photo, plays his shot from within the tunnel, as leaves prevented his ball from rolling completely through. Course  maintenance can be minimal, as the greens committee prefers to leave the course in its natural state as often as possible.



"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Kalen Braley

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 02:50:10 PM »
While I haven't played it....this one was built specifically with that in mind, and they advertise it too!

http://www.tetonreserve.com/golfcourse.html

Ken Moum

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 11:43:47 PM »
While I haven't played it....this one was built specifically with that in mind, and they advertise it too!

http://www.tetonreserve.com/golfcourse.html

This one was designed for the back nine to be played both ways as well http://www.dakotamagic.com/?/golf/  It's at the Sisseton/Wahpeton tribe's casino.

I haven't played it either, but I did stop to pick up a scorecard a couple years ago.

Here's the Sisseton routing:



This is the Wahpeton routing



K
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 11:46:09 PM by Ken Moum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Kalen Braley

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 02:46:26 PM »
Ken,

Thanks for posting that.  My brother lives in somewhat nearby Rexburg, ID.  Perhaps its time to schedule a trip to go see him and see if I can give it a play!!  ;)

Frank Pont

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 04:13:01 AM »
Interestingly enough I am currently designing a reversable 9 holes course called Ullerberg. It is not a flat property but has height differences of up to 20 metres, which indeed makes it harder than doing the same excercise on a flat piece of property. I was keen to try this idea ever since I read Tom Simpson's book in which he describes the concept of a 9 hole reversable course and shows a drawing of it.

I am using this idea because this will be a high end 9 holes course in a great sandy side on a former sand pit, but with no chance of ever expanding to 18 holes, due to nature preservation issues. I still wanted to give players a more diverse experience, and must say I do not agree that one of the 9 holes always has to be better than the other, they will just be different.

You can see the current layout below, where I have used the terms Blue and Red courses to differentiate between them. The contourlines are 1 m, with a plateau in the middle of the property.

The Blue course



The Red course




PS. Ullerberg also has a seperate ancient 9 holes golf course with heather fairways and grass greens that was featured in one of Paul Daleys earlier books

David Davis

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
Frank,

This looks quite interesting. I guess my question would be is it possible to play 18 holes on a busy day when other people are playing the course while playing forwards and backwards. If so how have you dealt with relative safety issues and what's the system of who gets to go for which green first? Priority given to players on the inward 9?

Or is it just one day/week one direction the next day the other.

To me it sounds like a really cool concept for a 9 holer with space issues. Might of worked well for a course like Groendahl in Wassenaar as well.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 09:43:48 AM »
David, you could do morning foursomes one way, afternoon singles the other way. Do not think you could be playing two ways at the same time, but it for sure would be an interesting experiment  :)

Brian, the proof is in the pudding, come an play the Ullerberg course when its ready....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AM »
Brian:

You're not putting on the tees.  You are playing to the greens from a different angle.

Frank:

I agree, it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other.  But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior.  So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course.  A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.


Frank Pont

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 11:31:04 AM »
For those of you who do not have Tom Simpson's book, here is the Appendix I on The Reversible Course. I think he quite eloquently addresses some of the concerns and issues that have been raised:

The Reversible Course

To play a course backwards was an alternative that commended itself for many sound reasons almost as soon as golf courses
came into being. Within living memory the Old Course at St. Andrews was habitually played in reverse, and for all we know it may
still be so played. At North Berwick, and probably on most, if not all, of the older courses, the custom prevailed, in order, as it was said, to " rest the course."

In other words, this procedure helped to preoerve the fairways over a given area from being unduly cut up with divot marks-a point
on which opinion was then particularly stringent; it also gave the grass time to recover in the places where divots had been cut. Some
method of the kind was absolutely necessary when courses were so much shorter than they are now and required the playing of a greater number of strokes within a much more limited area. In fact, iron play was rather frowned upon and discouraged as being unduly destructive of good turf. The modern practice of tearing the fairways to pieces, as well as the tees at the shorter holes, would have been regarded-and rightly so-with horror.

It will be remembered, too, that " the green," by which was meant the entire extent of the links, had very largely to look after itself. It was never so patched up or so carefully tended as it is to-day to help its wounds to heal. The course was reversed and played backwards at stated intervals to enable it to gain a little rest between whiles and recover the trueness of its surface. In addition to this, the immediate neighbourhood of the putting greens was found to be greatly benefited by a variation in the line of the approach.
It will be worth while to note some of the indirect effects of so contriving a course as to enable it to be played the other way round. We can still see the principle embedded in the Old Course at St. Andrews the one course which is the best example of the evolutionary priociples peculiar to golf. No doubt the history of the changes that have taken place there is well known to the majority of the students of the antiquities ofthe game; how the play extended at first over only six holes; how these six were subsequently doubled by using them on a homeward journey of which we have evidence in a fine series of double greens; and how, finally, the twelve holes were made up to eighteen by the addition of a " loop " at the further extremity much in the same way that a new wing is added to a mansion which has outgrown its capacity.

The impressive width of the large putting greens still remains as one of the most distinctive features of a historic course, although the course itself was once far narrower. " Hell Bunker "was originally the threatening hazard of " the Hole Across going out," showing us how almost absurdly to our eyes the play over the links was compressed. This compression is still often vividly brought to our notice at the most noteworthy holes, although more elbow-room in course of time has been providentially allowed. Still, according to Mr. Joshua Crane's somewhat remarkable system of reckoning the merits of individual courses, St. Andrews suffers the indignity of many bad arks set against her credit on account of the tightness of her" margins." These margins, however, have withstood the test of time and mark the limits within which the interior holes were played in either direction alternately.  As regards the opening and finishing holes at St. Andrews nothing could be finer or more appropriate than the simplicity which adds dignity to design in providing a promenade for the townspeople over turf free from the disfigurement of unsightly artificial hazards. The Swilcan Burn and the Valley of Sin are quite adequate in themselves to justify these holes in the absence of any other distinctive golfing features. But once the play is opened after crossing the Burn we become involved in a network of holes over an exceptional golfing terrain, an undulating maze of attractive folds in the ground, amongst which the inexperienced would be quickly lost but for the guidance of expert conductors. The confusion is bound to be bewildering until familiarity breeds admiration. The mind at this crucial point of the round is kept constantly on the alert,  so much so that whichever the way one might be playing, whether backwards or forwards, the interest stimulated by the complexity of the problem is equally keen.

We are inclined to believe that these holes owe much of their fascination to the fact that there were, and are still, reversible; that in this old and discarded principle of reversibility lies one of the great possibilities in the way of development so far as modern golf  architecture is concerned. Ruch a scheme might conceivably be found to be the best antidote to an existing tendency towards the undue repetition of stock devices which are always liable to creep in and create a monotony of design. Anything that would be likely to conduce to greater freedom and elasticity is a development to be heartily welcomed by everyone. Surely there are many advantages to be gained in making two courses out of one, in doubling over the same ground the character of the strokes, in rever~ing on the technical side the penalties of pulled or sliced shots, and in adding on occasions an entire novelty to the approach shots?

To find an opportunity of putting the idea to a practical test by attempting the experiment on a course of the ordinary pattern is not
always altogether easy; yet it must have suggested itself before now hundreds of times to many of our enterprising players. Some exceptional occasion is needed when the course is empty-during, for instance, the very early hours of the morning, or possibly during a deluge of rain when only fanatical enthusiasts would venture out on the links. One such experiment is within our recollection, when four Oxford undergraduates chose the latter of these alternatives during- a hurricane of wind and rain, probably because they referred a soaking at a reasonable hour to the less agreeable novelty of having to rise at daybreak.  The experiment was certainly as entertaining to the spectator as to the players, since a number of fine shots during the round were needed to bring off approaches to distant greens from rough country at strange angles. The course in question was by no means so well adapted to a reversal as many we know of; it was bisected and bordered by roads which had to be crossed more frequently by the other way about than by the right way round. The culminating point of the match was reached in playing to the green of the last hole (owing to a slight error by one of the players) of a highly dangerous shot down the whole length of a street on which, fortunately, there was no traffic at the time, over a crossroad at the further end, at the same time narrowly shaving the clubhouse which by the more direct route would have had to be carried.  Luckily everything went well, and nothing happened to mar the success of the venture.

The conditions, at any rate on this course, were not of the best for playing in reverse fashion; and on a certain number of courses it is
obvious that such a scheme would be entirely out of the question. It will be as well therefore to enquire very briefly what are the ideal conditions and advantages to be gained by such a reversal, and also to enumerate the points of application which are involved. A glance at the accompanying skeleton plan of three holes designed on this principle will give an idea of the way in which a full round could under favourable conditions be made possible. In this plan it will be observed that only the more ambitious routes are indicated. In order to avoid confusion we have confined ourselves to marking the spoor of the Tiger, leaving the tracks of the Rabbit across his own fairway to the imagination of the reader to fill in as he pleases. A closer examination, however, will show that every consideration is given to the weaker player whichever way the course is played. At the two longer holes he cannot reasonably expect to reach the green in the same number of strokes as his more powerful rival, but he has every opportunity of equalising on handicap terms. There is plenty of room for him if he chooses to take his chances.

The advantages claimed for a reversible course may be summarised as follows:

1. As to the practical value of such a scheme one gain would be, as we have seen, that the greenkeeper finds a " resting " interval for
the course (of, say, a month at a time) which would be of the greatest benefit over certain parts of the fairway in repairing divot holes. It would also give the grass during this period an excellent chance of recovery without interfering with the play.

2. In the neighbourhood of the greens, also, it can easily be realised how devastating can be the effect of continuous traffic to the entrance of a green. The ground through any kind of " bottle-neck " tends to become consolidated beyond the point that is desirable for the healthy growth of the delicate grasses. Concentrated traffic of the kind closes the pores of the ground and hinders the steady development of good turf, at the same time adding considerably to the task of the green" keeper in keeping the course in good order. If the ground periodically obtains a rest, the difficulty is appreciably less. Over the fairways there is not the same danger. Here the walking is much more widely distributed, and the delicacy of the surface through the green is not of the same importance.

3. It is not suggested that every kind of ground is suitable for a reversible course. What might be called the heroic courses are practically out of the question so far as reversibility is concerned except at enormous and unjustifiable expense. Prestwick, St. George's Sandwich and Gleneagles, to take three examples, would obviously be impossible to reverse whatever sums of money might be spent on them. It should be clearly understood that we are considering the matter purely on the supposition that the course must be equally good whichever way it is played.

4. The ideal site for a reversible course would be ground already under grass, such as park land. Here possibly the best golfing featun:s
might be rather conspicuous by their absence, but this, although a matter of importance, would not be a vital consideration when we weigh the advantages and disadvantages connected with courses on grass land already under cultivation. That is not to say, however, that the principle is in any way inapplicable to courses where the ground is rich in natural golfing features, such as are to be found on the best of the Surrey heaths. The only point we wish to emphasise is that marked or bold inequalities of surface are not prima facie suitable for the purpose we are discussing. Obtrusive plateau greens, for example, if they are raised above a certain point, would at once involve serious difficulties, since in one direction it would be a question of playing up to a higher level and in the other of running
down to a lower.

5. As regards the effect of wind on a course, there is nothing more irritating than having to play a long series of holes either with or against it. Far the better plan is for the direction of the holes to be well broken up during a round-as it were, by a process of tacking. When a course is so constructed that it is generally affected throughout by a prevalent wind from a certain quarter, which really does prevail, an alternative way of playing the course will be found to be a considerable relief-at any rate during certain periods of the year.

6. The most obvious advantage of all is the increased pleasure and variety in having two courses instead of one. To the practical mind,
also, the idea should make a strong appeal because you practically get two courses for the same money, or (to put it in another way) you belong to two golf clubs for the payment of one subscription. Supposing that the course is really representative, at least 76 golfing shots of character will be available instead of the normal 38 (allowing for the customary two putts on each green); and as regards the additional pleasure gained by a change of direction it is only necessary to think of the experience of motoring along a country road and returning the same way. Two entirely different aspects of scenery arc provided. When, therefore, this
factor is combined on a golf course with an entirely separate range of shots, the gain must be acknowledged to be very considerable. A player would never grow tired of the course under these far more varied conditions. Another point is that there need not  necessarily be the same lengths in regard to each of the individual holes; so that here again there would be an agreeable variation.

7. The questions of design that are involved are of the very first importance. The problem would naturally be considerably easier if
the course were laid out with this particular end of reversibility in view; and, above all, the scheme lends itself to the " strategic " type of design. Little, if any, additional bunkering on a strategic course would be needed for the reverse play. In fact, additional bunkers, except where absolutely necessary, would be both undesirable and superfluous. A dog-legged hole to the right would be converted automatically to a dog-legged hole to the left, and vice versa. As a matter of necessity also the tee shot at such holes would have to be placed in the reverse direction- to the extreme right or left as the case might be. This of itself would demand a greater test of skill and intelligence on the part of the player.  On a" penal " course, the fairway of which is smothered in bunkers, the result of attempting a reverse course would not only be tedious and boring, but quite without point or interest. The design would of its own accord fall to pieces.

8. The Adaptation of the ordinary type of course to the reversible might prove rather an expensive matter, although often it would prove a feasible proposition. The principle is obviously more suited to a new course. When a new course is in contemplation there could be no objection to incorporating the idea in the skeleton plan provided that the ground lent itself to such a treatment. In such an event the additional cost would be comparatively little. The extra fairway area would not, even under the most adverse circumstances, have to be more than 25 per cent. of the whole. The greens, it is true, would have to be slightly larger (possibly an increase of 20 per cent.) than we should generally favour, but no larger than those that are usually constructed. Also, no
extra tees would be required-certainly not more than are generally in use on an ordinary course.
One reservation should be noted in this connection-that if the ground were badly shaped a certain increase of superficial area might be necessary. But, assuming that the ground were of ordinarily good formation, the normal one hundred and twenty-five acres would suffice. The chief difficulty with which the architect is faced in making full use of the really suitable golfing ground on any given  roperty is not so much the getting of the player to the place where a green is eminently suitable as the getting him away from it without excessively long walks between the green and the next tee. For this reason an awkward piece of ground might make the designing of a reversible course extremely difficult, if not quite impossible.

9· Our view is that a course constructed on the principles we have been advocating should, if possible, be played in the same order of
holes in either direction-that is to say, play would be from the clubhouse to Green 17,and in strictly reverse order until Green 1 is reached, when the play would be from Tee No. 2 to the 18th green. But there is no real necessity to make a hide-bound rule on the point. In the centre of the course a divergence might be made if' it were felt advisable, although it would probably present a few additional difficulties. The chief reason for our preference for a similar order of play is that it is generally the sides of the greens which are guarded by bunkers. In principle the angle of the approach should be the same whichever way the course is played-that is, along the length of the green. Here, again, everything would depend on the lie of the ground and its peculiar formation.

10. As a last suggestion, supposing that it is admitted that the possibilities available on an eighteen-hole course belonging to a club
are enhanced, do not the same possibilities apply with still greater force to the private course which often embraces only nine? There are none of the difficulties to be encountered in endeavouring to reconcile the conflicting views of individual m,embers, nor is there the same likelihood of so many players being on the course at one and the same time that people will get in the way when the reverse nine holes are played to complete for all practical purposes a full eighteen of which every hole is different. Neither is the additional cost of construction or the additional area of ground required likely to cause any great hesitation if the advantages to be gained are carefully weighed.

We have said that possibly the ideal ground for a reversible course is the kind which corresponds to park land or ground already under
grass; and these are precisely the conditions which usually dictate the laying out of private courses. A little ingenuity on the lines we have put forward might help wonderfully to relieve the monotony of many of the minor links, without, so far as one can see, any corresponding disadvantages. But, whether short or long, there seems to be no very convincing reason, provided the conditions are favourable, why a method approved in the past should not be revived with even greater advantage in the present.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 11:35:27 AM by Frank Pont »

Frank Pont

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 11:34:53 AM »

Jud_T

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 04:59:57 PM »
Frank,

That looks like a very interesting course.  Is it going to be public or private?  Have you ever played the Dunes Club?  They have some very interesting alternate tees (90 degree different angle of attack, different holes cut after lunch, etc.) but nothing like this.  Sounds like something to put under the research budget  8).  This would be a great type of club to belong to.  Could be an interesting option going forward for more bang for your buck in terms of real estate, keeping membership/greens fee costs down and the environmental benefits, particularly in the current economic climate.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 05:04:23 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Garland Bayley

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Frank Pont

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Re: Play It In Reverse
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 02:23:18 AM »
Frank,

That looks like a very interesting course.  Is it going to be public or private?  Have you ever played the Dunes Club?  They have some very interesting alternate tees (90 degree different angle of attack, different holes cut after lunch, etc.) but nothing like this.  Sounds like something to put under the research budget  8).  This would be a great type of club to belong to.  Could be an interesting option going forward for more bang for your buck in terms of real estate, keeping membership/greens fee costs down and the environmental benefits, particularly in the current economic climate.

Jud, I fully agree with you that this is a great club to belong to. Even though I am a member at De Pan, which is about as good as it gets, I am pretty sure I will play frequently at this course which is 30 minutes north from where I live.

I am more in the camp of Tom S than Tom D on this one, believing that there are a lot of advantages, especially in a country as flat and short of space as the Netherlands.

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