[Bryan Izatt]

The 5th hole is another abrupt change in direction, about 120* left from the 4th hole, and thus turns back into a quartering wind from the left.  The hole is kind of pedestrian with a very flat fairway and no fairway bunkers to spice up the drive, but some interest on the green.  I would imagine that most good players would be disappointed if they didn't walk away with a birdie.

[Bryan Izatt]

The 6th hole makes a 90* left turn from the 5th turning you back into the teeth of the wind and continuing the constantly turning routing.  Playing into the prevailing wind it would be difficult to carry the right bunker off the tee even for long hitters.  There is 30 yards of knobby rough to carry beyond the bunker.  Anything slightly off line to the right is in jail or lost in the rough.  I'd think that most would try to fit the drive into the fairway and try to get hole with a long second shot.  I'd imagine that this hole played as a par 4 in the Open.  Although it may look easy it messed up all three of us in our round there.  Since the aerial below was taken another bunker was added just short and left of the green making it more difficult for anyone trying to reach the green in two.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bryan,

the easy way to play it is as a three shotter. 3 wood, long iron and wedge. Going for the green in two is very realistic but both drive and second become reall tough shots which can get you into serious teouble if you get it wrong. This was played as a par 4 in the open as are the 13th & 18th holes.

Jon

[Bryan Izatt]

Jon,

Playing into the wind it turned out that the easy way to play it was far from easy.  Standing on the tee of a 475 yard par 5 most of us have high hopes for a birdie.  This hole dashes those hopes.  I guess it is the #1 stroke index hole for a reason. 

As a par 4, it also played as the hardest hole at the 2008 Open with a stroke average of more than 4.7.

The 13th is a 422 yard par 4 today.  Was it a par 5 prior to the Open?

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Bryan,

I think you will find the stroke index is more to do with allocation of shots in matchplay than difficulty of hole though the rise in the popularity of stableford has altered the perception of the SI for many. My recollection is that 13 was a par 5 in normal play the tee being behind and right of the 12th green.

Jon

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Hi Bryan,

I think you will find the stroke index is more to do with allocation of shots in matchplay than difficulty of hole though the rise in the popularity of stableford has altered the perception of the SI for many. My recollection is that 13 was a par 5 in normal play the tee being behind and right of the 12th green.

Jon

Index 1 par 5s seem to be quite common in the UK. I think it's something you see on the older courses. Index 1 at Silloth is the par 5 13th and rightly so. Not sure about S&A and Lytham, but I think they are also par 5s. Can't remember if Formby's 8th is a low index.

I made a mess of the 6th, but if I was in a competition, I'd play it differently. My drive was well short of the right-hand bunker at the corner, so all that was needed was a 5 iron over the corner and perhaps a 7 iron to the green. I had no chance of reaching the green from where my drive was, but I chose to take a 3W and dumped it in the large mound right of the bunker; lost ball!

It's not a difficult hole for lower HCAP players, especially off the yellow tees.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Hole 7, Blue 178 yds / White 177 yds / Yellow 140 yds, Par 3.

The par three seventh plays approximately in a southerly direction from the elevated yellow tee. This is the second of three one-shotters that are played downhill; the other two are the 4th and 14th. From this angle, the green becomes broader (29 yards) than it is deep (approx. 18 yards); a welcome orientation for a tee shot that will be influenced by the wind from the right. Played from the blue and white tees, the hole plays towards the south-west to a narrower target, and more directly into the prevailing wind (see hole layout below).





The green is surrounded by seven bunkers, though only three or four are only visible from the tee.







The raised green slopes from right to left and is one of the more undulating greens at Birkdale.



Birkdale's "doughnut" bunker.



Looking back across the green towards the less elevated white tee nestled in the dunes.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's another aerial and picture.  Playing from the yellow tees with an in and crossing wind and with the slope of the green you can easily have balls sucking off the front of the green and being collected by the front bunker.  The hole must be quite daunting when played from the blue tee if the wind is up at all.  This kind of drop shot par 3 to a green surrounded by a pearl necklace of bunkers seems to be common to a number of links courses in the neigbourhood.

[Sean_A]

Hi Bryan,

I think you will find the stroke index is more to do with allocation of shots in matchplay than difficulty of hole though the rise in the popularity of stableford has altered the perception of the SI for many. My recollection is that 13 was a par 5 in normal play the tee being behind and right of the 12th green.

Jon

Index 1 par 5s seem to be quite common in the UK. I think it's something you see on the older courses. Index 1 at Silloth is the par 5 13th and rightly so. Not sure about S&A and Lytham, but I think they are also par 5s. Can't remember if Formby's 8th is a low index.

I made a mess of the 6th, but if I was in a competition, I'd play it differently. My drive was well short of the right-hand bunker at the corner, so all that was needed was a 5 iron over the corner and perhaps a 7 iron to the green. I had no chance of reaching the green from where my drive was, but I chose to take a 3W and dumped it in the large mound right of the bunker; lost ball!

It's not a difficult hole for lower HCAP players, especially off the yellow tees.

Yes, Formby's 8th is #1 handicap.  I think the reasoning behind high par 5 indexes in the UK is many single figure cappers can reach (often shortish par 5s) in two, while many long cappers can't reach in three unless they smooth three in a row.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Hole 8, Blue 457 yds / White 413 yds / Yellow 395 yds, Par 4.

The eighth hole heads in a easterly direction, and usually plays downwind. There's not really much that I can add as "what you see" in the photos "is what you get".  The holes up to this stage have been solid, but certainly not spectacular. The 8th hole is no exception and while it may be a solid hole, on a solid Open championship course, it just fails to generate any excitement in me. Once again, we tee off from a slightly raised starting point, and play to a fairway a few feet lower. The approach is to a green a few feet above fairway level.
 


Carrying the new bunker on the inside of the dogleg will require a carry of 267 yards (205 from the yellows). 



A couple of bunkers (one of which is also new) down the right at about 300 yards probably come into play when the flag is on the left side of the green.





One would be forgiven for thinking "The Round House" in the background was designed by the architect that designed the clubhouse, but it wasn't. The house was built in 1924 by Luke Highton; the clubhose was designed by a local architect named George E. Tonge and opened in 1935. 





How do they maintain the slopes around this bunker?



The ground falls off more on the left side of the green. I'd imagine the flag is tucked close to this bunker on one of the weekend days of the Open.



The green is not without interest, but is very much along the same lines as previous greens; not too boring, but not too exciting either.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's an aerial of the 8th.  Yet another hole that's amongst the dunes, but is not part of the dunes.  I'm beginning to think that there is a spectrum of links courses and that Royal Birkdale, Royal Lytham and even TOC fall into a flat links genus.  Cruden Bay, for instance, would not fall in this genus of links courses.  I can see how Birkdale and Lytham, as part of the Open rota, can provide a championship challenge, but do not inspire.




That little bunker on the inside corner was only 205 yards?  How could I hit such a small target.




The left edge of the fairway or first cut of rough gives a good angle to the green.

[Niall C]

Hi Bryan,

I think you will find the stroke index is more to do with allocation of shots in matchplay than difficulty of hole though the rise in the popularity of stableford has altered the perception of the SI for many. My recollection is that 13 was a par 5 in normal play the tee being behind and right of the 12th green.

Jon

Index 1 par 5s seem to be quite common in the UK. I think it's something you see on the older courses. Index 1 at Silloth is the par 5 13th and rightly so. Not sure about S&A and Lytham, but I think they are also par 5s. Can't remember if Formby's 8th is a low index.

I made a mess of the 6th, but if I was in a competition, I'd play it differently. My drive was well short of the right-hand bunker at the corner, so all that was needed was a 5 iron over the corner and perhaps a 7 iron to the green. I had no chance of reaching the green from where my drive was, but I chose to take a 3W and dumped it in the large mound right of the bunker; lost ball!

It's not a difficult hole for lower HCAP players, especially off the yellow tees.

Yes, Formby's 8th is #1 handicap.  I think the reasoning behind high par 5 indexes in the UK is many single figure cappers can reach (often shortish par 5s) in two, while many long cappers can't reach in three unless they smooth three in a row.

Ciao

The 13th at Silloth didn't use to be stroke index 1, it used to be SI 2. SI 1 was the 7th, SI 3 was the 3rd and from memory the fourth was SI 5. Can't recall SI 4. Whats interesting is that they aren't particularly long relative to par and they only have one bunker between them.

Donal

Very much enjoying the tour, thanks for posting. The impression I get is that its a pretty solid course without being spectacular, fair comment ? Certainly, if you had posted without saying what course I don't know that I'd have recognised it or even guessed it being an Open venue.

Niall

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Niall:

You comment is fair in my opinion. Birkdale is "a safe pair of hands" as an Open venue. It can handle the crowds and I guess the infrastructure it pretty good, but it's rather dull, to be brutally honest. There are no "Wow!!" moments, not even a few "Ohh, this is interesting" and certainly no "Oh, how unusual", not unless you are thinking of the doughnut bunker. I don't think I'm being harsh; I just want more from the course and Birkdale doesn't have a lot to give me. The dunes are nice, but they are not utilised, except for the 6th, 12th and 17th holes. Even the 12th was a let down; the location of the green is nice, but location isn't everything. I would like to play it again, as I'd have a better idea of what I could take on, with regards to driving. I am also a firm believer in the notion that the more you play a course, the more it will reveal its strategy and nuances. So, I'd play it again, but there are other courses that need to be seen first, before I'd consider a revisit.

Bryan:

I'd put Lytham and Muirfield in the same category. Two sites that are not great, but both courses are good inspite of the terrain (I haven't played Muirfield). Birkdale, on the other hand was dealt a perfect site and is less interesting than Lytham in my opinion. I haven't played TOC, but the rolling nature of the fairways and greens is a big plus mark. I place very little importance on views or the height of dunes, so that's why I put Lytham ahead of Birkdale.

I think your drive on the 8th would have run another 30-40 yards if it hadn't caught the bunker. I too, was surprised to see it was only 205 yds to that bunker, as we had a slight wind aiding us.

Which site are you getting the aerials from? Google maps only has the older aerials, so the bunkering scheme is different.

[Sean_A]

I am not a big Birkdale supporter from the perspective of how highly rated the course is, but I think its better than "solid".  You guys are perhaps a bit harsh.  I would agree Birkdale doesn't wow me because the course seems designed by committee.  There is very little happening in terms of daring design to set it apart.  This is why its a great shame Hoylake has been emasculated of its OOB these past decades - that was its calling card and the daring aspect of the design regardless of what people thought of the concept.  The OOB is similar to Westward Ho!'s rushes.  Like it or not, they are the what set the course apart - something I value very highly.

Ciao

[Neil White]

How do they maintain the slopes around this bunker?


Very carefully I'd imagine 

Not entirely sure why they felt they needed to though 

Neil.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I am not a big Birkdale supporter from the perspective of how highly rated the course is, but I think its better than "solid".  You guys are perhaps a bit harsh.  I would agree Birkdale doesn't wow me because the course seems designed by committee.  There is very little happening in terms of daring design to set it apart.

The above description aligns very well with my definition of "solid" or good. I just can't persuade myself to conclude that Birkdale is "very good". I wanted it to be very good/excellent or outstanding, but it isn't for me. Your mention of designed by committe is apt. There's nothing risky or bold about it. There's a sameness about the green complexes, almost to the point of being repetitive. Could this be because they were all rebuilt a number of years ago? I don't know why the 17th green was criticized for being out of character with the rest of the course. Surely this course needs more controversial greens like the 17th.

What do we seek with links golf? We want tilted fairways, awkward lies, raised greens, fairway level greens, punchbowl greens, uphill shots, downhill shots, blind shots, severly sloped green, flat but tilted greens, small greens, large greens, etc. Birkdale only ticks 2-3 of the boxes. There just isn't enough variety for me.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Very fair analysis from all who have cast their opinion.
I will make one little addition to the discussion that I belive makes Birkdale turn up a notch, and that is what happens when you move to the back tees.
All of a sudden alot of that sameness and lack of wow that you gents discuss changes.
Not that I am saying you should have to be on the back tees to become wowed or to see a different course, but at Ropyal Birkdale you really do see a totally different course.
Angles change dramtically on the tee shots, the course becomes ever so much more penal from the adjusted lines off the tee and so consequently the shots into the greens become mkore chalenging.
The flatter lies than many associate with links golf clearly do not change and that remains open for discussion, for many it makes it less quirky and more"fair" for others less traditional links.
I am biased as Royal Birkdale is very very high on my favourite list, but on the other hand I can see what all your comments are about

[Bryan Izatt]

Donal,

The aerials are from bing.com/maps in the bird's eye view.  They are more oblique than those on Google maps.  They can be rotated to four points of the compass which is nice.  Since they are more oblique and taken from lower altitudes you can see more of the contouring of the ground if the angle of the light is good.


Michael,

I'd understand that going back to the back tees would change the angles and make it more challenging and that that makes it a better "championship" course, but it doesn't change whether it meets Donal's criteria for a great links course.  Personally, I think it is better than solid, but it still does not inspire enough to make it a "great" course for me.  I did enjoy it and I could see why it makes a good  Open rota course.  I suspect that the pros would not like to play a championship on the links courses that I would find inspiring, nor would those courses probably be challenging enough scoring-wise for them. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bryan,
I ahve no problems with your comments whatsoever, totally justified.
I agree one should not have to go back to other tees to get the whole experience, or indeed to get a wow..but nonetheless that is the case at Birkdale.
I would be interested to read what wows you on some of the other Open courses/
I love Muirfield, but find it way more dull to play than Birkdale, it is a wonderful course and a great test, but to me more mundane than Birkdale, same can be said for Carnoustie imho...I love this comaprison of opinions thats why I love this site so much.

[Bryan Izatt]

Michael,

What wows me on some of the other Open courses?  Now, there's a good question I never thought of.

For reference, I have played 5 Open rota courses: TOC; Carnoustie; Turnberry; Royal Birkdale; and, Royal Lytham & St. Annes.  I haven't played Muirfield, Troon, Hoylake or Royal St Georges so can't comment on the those.

I'd also prefer to say what inspired me rather than what wowed me.  Things that I think wow me probably relate more to the setting and surroundings of golf holes.  For instance, I stopped and said wow when I played the 4th at Wallasey recently.  The vista from the tee over the sea and the way the hole and the 17th coming back was just a wow moment.  The 4th at Cruden Bay is a wow moment given the setting.  The 6th tee at Dornoch is a wow moment - wow what am I going to do with this hole.  The 9th and 10th tees at Pacific Dunes - just wow with the vistas and the holes laid out as they are, or the 4th or 16th at Bandon Dunes, just wow about the settings.

But on to the Open courses, what inspired me about them?  The Old Course - I just can't help but be inspired by the first tee experience and the whole milieu.  The double greens and their rolls and contours is inspiring to me.  The 11th green and bunkers.  Who can't get inspired by that hole.  How to play the 12th hole and its bunker minefield, does that not get you overthinking.  Hell bunker.  Why can't I miss it.  Isn't it great fun to get out of it?  The whole of the 17th hole.  The setting of the 18th green and just the sense of place.

I like Carnoustie the best of the rest - it inspires me because it is no doubt the most difficult.  I want to do well, to meet the challenge.  The challenges of many of the holes, 16, 17 and 18 for instance inspire me to want to execute well, to satisfy myself that I can play difficult holes in difficult conditions well.  Royal Lytham and Birkdale I respect as strong championship golf courses, but I don't recall standing anywhere on them and saying "wow" or feeling inspired that this was a truly great golfing experience.  I preferred Birkdale over Lytham because of it's setting in the dunes, although the dunes aren't for the most part involved in the holes.  It was easy to see the strength of each course in standing up to scoring by the pros and the strategies required to play each hole.  All things considered though, they were like other championship courses in the US, for instance; they look like they were designed as opposed to being found in the land.  Of course, they have features that are unique to links courses like firm turf, fine grasses, and pot bunkers for instance.

Turnberry sort of falls in between.  There were areas that were inspiring, especially the holes along by the sea, both because of their setting but also because of their use of the dunes and topography.  I got a feeling of playing on interesting golf land.  But then there were uninspiring holes too, probably made to seem worse by the juxtaposition with the really good holes.

Hope that helps.

Dónal, sorry for wandering off on a tangent on your thread.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Michael:

I don't have my own personal scale for ranking courses; I don't really like ranking courses. Having said that, I guess I need to revise my assessment of Birkdale as "solid" or good. Most courses I play are in the good category. I would class my home course as good (it's rated about 30th in Sweden), and Birkdale is better in someways (the site, conditioning, green surrounds, bunkering, tee shot angles) but not as interesting in other areas (green undulations, strategy). Maybe Birkdale is a very good course (e.g. Southport & Ainsdale), but I find it difficult to rate is as excellent (e.g. Silloth, Formby) or great (e.g. Lahinch) or outstanding (e.g. Ballybunion). My assessment might change with repeated plays.

I'm not seeking "Wow!" moments when I play golf, but it's nice when they occur. "Wow!" moments are not an indication of quality or greatness, they are special moments when you get a great feeling of pleasure and excitement all at once. I thought the old 2nd tee and 17th tees at Rosapenna were places where you got that feeling (unfortunately they're not part of the old course now). The 11th, 15th and 17th tees at Ballybunion are also special. Heading down the hill at the 5th (right hole?) at Rosses Point with the whole course out there before you, is another great moment. There are no moments like the above at Birkdale, but this doesn't weigh heavily on my final assessment of the course.

I do want to see something unusual, unexpected and interesting. I didn't see anything at Birkdale that was unusual (except perhaps perfectly flat fairways on a links course) or unexpected (except perhaps perfectly flat fairways on a links course  ), but there were some but not enough interesting moments (e.g. 9th hole, the deceptive and confusing bunkering on the 15th fairway, 16th hole, the drive at the 17th).

Those interesting angles and challenges are present from the yellow tees. The bunker at the corner of the first was there to be taken on, but as it was our first time playing Birkdale, we tended to seek out the fairway via less challenging means. The mound/ridge down the left side of the second, and the bunkers down the left of the 3rd are possible to carry from the yellow tees. Perhaps if we weren't playing into the wind on the 6th, carrying the right hand bunker dig into the ridge could have been attempted. The bunker down the left of the 8th was certainly within (205 yds  ) our ability to carry. So the challenges are there, and there's no doubt that Birkdale is a stern challenge when these more aggressive angles are attempted.

The only back tees where the angles are quite different are at holes, 3 (slight difference), 7, 8 (slight difference), 11, 13, 16, 17 (slightly) and 18 where there's a second fairway as far as the dog-leg angle.

Bryan:

Your comments are very relevant to this discussion.

The bing.com/maps site is great. Thanks for the tip. I just spent a few hours examining Portmarnock from all angles.

[Bryan Izatt]

Dónal,

I too am not a big fan of rating or ranking courses.  I usually end up with a subjective feeling of satisfaction, or indifference or dissatisfaction with a course.  I think more highly of courses where I feel like I'd really like to get out there and play the course again.  And, it must really be a great course if I want to do that despite the cost.  Pebble Beach and Castle Stuart are two courses that I enjoyed and liked, but not enough to pay the price to go back to them.  Not sure if that makes them great or not.

In your assessment of Silloth and Formby as excellent on your personal scale, what was it that brought you to that conclusion?  What did you see in them that was unusual, unexpected and interesting?  I can think of wow moments on both - moreso that Birkdale or Lytham, but I'd be interested to hear what you saw that makes you feel that they are excellent rather than very good.

[John Mayhugh]

I've really enjoyed the photo tour so far, as well as the honest discussion on the course. Wish I had been able to play it with you.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I love Formby...both before and after the changes.
A great mixture of style and content and simly so much fun to play.
Was there in July, unfortunately the weather was simply too bad to play, but we had a great lunch and soaked up as much of the place as we could.
Whenever I am home I always try to visit the Southport area, one of my favourite all time golfing locations.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Hole 9, Blue 414 yds / White 410 yds / Yellow 400 yds, Par 4.

After playing the preceeeding eight holes where every hazard, every hillock and every fairway was clearly set out before us, we are now confronted with an uphill blind tee shot. To say the least, this is atypical for Birkdale, and not what we expected at all. The confusion is shortlived as help is at hand in the form of an observation post next to the tee. 



Aim for the lone tree between the shed and the mound, or over the last tree on the right if you're a bit more daring.



The view that awaits after ascending the steps of the observation post. The ideal line is towards the bush/house/lamp post in the centre of the photo, but of course you cannot see these objects from the tee.



If you let your drive drift a little right, whether intentionally or not, you can shorten your approach by taking the direct line to the green.



The fairway curves gently around the mound in the centre of the photo. A bunker set into the mound was filled in during the most recent phase of course modifications. I'm unsure how the pros would play this hole. It's 273 yards to the mound on the inside of the dog-leg. The obvious choice is to take a driver and fade the shot around the corner. This would leave an approach shot of about 130 yards or less. Choosing the option to play a tee shot to the right and short of the mound, will leave a longer approach shot across the corner. I guess it would all depend on where the hole was cut.



One can imagine the advantage of this line of approach if the hole were cut just behind the front left greenside bunker. This bunker is also a recent addition.



The conventional route to the green. Not only are we treated to a stunning green site, but we also appreciate the nice undulations on the approach to the green.



Although we all espouse and champion the running ground game, there's no denying that this green site is the best we've seen thus far at Birkdale.



Don't get caught up in either of the two fronting bunkers, or you'll really have your work cut out to get on the green. I don't believe Gary could see anything other than the top of the flag from his position, but he managed to leave it within a few feet and save par.



The green falls off from all sides. A really great green on a truly great hole. Birkdale has finally come alive!!

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