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Dieter Jones

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Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« on: September 12, 2012, 01:43:20 AM »
I am doing a theoretical re routing of a local golf course and find myself with a par 3 which will be significantly downhill. The elevation change will be about 18 to 20metres and the hole could play anything from 125 to 180m.

 I'm looking for good examples of holes that handle this sort of elevation change well and why you think they work. Bad examples and why would also be interesting..

Thanks.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 08:04:38 AM »
I am doing a theoretical re routing of a local golf course and find myself with a par 3 which will be significantly downhill. The elevation change will be about 18 to 20metres and the hole could play anything from 125 to 180m.

 I'm looking for good examples of holes that handle this sort of elevation change well and why you think they work. Bad examples and why would also be interesting..


Dieter,

# 14 at Pine Valley, # 9 at Yale, # 6 at NGLA would be examples of medium, long and short downhill par 3's

# 6 at ANGC would be another notable.

Shoal Creeks par 3's play downhill and I was told, when it first opened, that Nicklaus favors downhill par 3's as they give the golfer a complete visual of the hole and play shorter than the yardage.

Non-par 3, downhill holes can be found at NGLA, ANGC, Friars Head, Sebonack, Shinnecock.

Hope that helps.


Tom Culley

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 08:59:58 AM »
No 3 on the Dukes at Woburn is a superb hole, with a great green.
"Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf."

David_Tepper

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 09:09:17 AM »
"The Devil's Cauldron" is a famous downhill par-3, across a lake, on Stanley Thompson's course in Banff, Canada.

https://www.google.com/search?q=devil%27s+cauldron+banff+canada&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ixn&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=molQUJjNI4icjAKwv4CYDw&ved=0CCAQsAQ&biw=1067&bih=539

I have seen pictures of a steep downhill par-3 on a course (maybe by RT Jones) in Vermont (Sugarbush?).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:45:15 PM by David_Tepper »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 12:39:35 PM »
I know drop shot par 3's are sometimes overdone/cliche....

...but c'mon everyone loves em.  For anyone who has played Lake Chabot, can you honestly say you totally don't look forward to playing #9 when you're on the range getting ready for the round?

Canyon River in Missoula has a couple of nice ones on the back 9 as well as Missoula CC #17.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 12:45:23 PM »
Such holes are obviously quite common in mountainous or hilly areas. Having played the bulk of my golf in Colorado and Arizona, I could go on all day about examples, so I will stick to just one course.

The Rees Jones designed Quintero GC in the Phoenix area has three drop shot par 3s. 6 and 9 both play very similar distances and a similar amount downhill. The difference is that 9 has a pond in front. 16 is also a drop shot hole.

They do tend to be popular with a lot of players, but they can be very tricky to play. Judging how much a sever downhill shot will affect your club selection is one of the trickiest things in the game.

This is #9 at Quintero:


Emile Bonfiglio

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Stephen Davis

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 01:17:01 PM »
I think the 8th at Old MacDonald handles this very well. I think it is a perfect shot for the Biarritz green as well. Also, 9 at Chambers Bay is a fun shot. I know some people on the site don't like it, but every group I have played with have enjoyed that hole.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 01:29:28 PM »
The short at Shoreacres plays some 40 feet downhill.  From what I've seen of other shorts, I don't think it's the best example, but it's the one that I've played [and can find a link to]:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/shoreacres-il-usa/shoreacres-il-usa-pg-ii/

Jim Eder

Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 01:32:24 PM »
Dieter,

What is the prevailing wind situation? If it is a short hole into the prevailing wind it can present some issues that some players may not enjoy because of the risk of ballooning the shot. So one may have to think a bit more about what is short of the green.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 06:30:04 PM »
I think the 8th at Old MacDonald handles this very well. I think it is a perfect shot for the Biarritz green as well. Also, 9 at Chambers Bay is a fun shot. I know some people on the site don't like it, but every group I have played with have enjoyed that hole.

Both these holes reward landing the ball short and letting it run. In the case of Chambers Bay there is a hill left of the green to turn the ball towards the green running at an angle to the right.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Stephen Davis

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 07:34:33 PM »
I think the 8th at Old MacDonald handles this very well. I think it is a perfect shot for the Biarritz green as well. Also, 9 at Chambers Bay is a fun shot. I know some people on the site don't like it, but every group I have played with have enjoyed that hole.

Both these holes reward landing the ball short and letting it run. In the case of Chambers Bay there is a hill left of the green to turn the ball towards the green running at an angle to the right.


You are correct. I tend to really like holes that are set up like this. I think that there is something very gratifying in watching your ball travel across the contours of the green, especially when you are hitting the ball from a spot that offers you a complete view of the hole. It makes you appreciate the complexity of the green complex a bit more than a shot that just stops where it lands.

David Harshbarger

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 07:45:39 PM »
There's one at a local club, The Fairways at Halfmoon, where the back-to-front green and moderate length give the best approximation of dart throwing you can have.  That effect is enhanced with hazards protecting the front.

That said, because the elevation change will change the ball's angle at impact relative to shots played at the same elevation, I would think there are opportunities to provide novel options on these holes.  Also, I think a lot would depend on how the land drops from tee to green.  If the drop is over a gully, and the land is rising at the green, I would think creating an interesting dart throwing challenge is the starting point.
 
If on the other hand the land is stil falling away as you reach the green, you have an opportunity to provide a preferred option to play short of the green and use the land to move the ball forward, specifically if you can provide a green treatment that unduly punishes poor aerial shots.  For example, if you could put concave features in the green and convex in the approaches, you could cheat some interesting alternatives on how to play a hole.  

The key item being of course, being able to make use of ground falling away along the line of play for playing interest, if available.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 07:57:42 PM »
Jim the prevailing wind is a northerly which would put it as a right to left wind blowing from approximately 4 o'clock to 10 oclock on this hole. A sea breeze southerly can also occur but is less common.

David. I did think of the devils cauldron especially given that there will probably need to ba a new irrigation dam built.  A likely site is between the tee and green on this proposed par 3. There is also a bay in the river just off to the left of the green site (ie the wind blowing balls towards the hazard) so There is no lack of challenge to the shot. That why I wanted to see other examples and see if people thought they play well/to difficult.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 08:07:53 PM »
David H, the land falls straight off e tee for about 90m, is then flat for about 35m before rising up again at the green site. Elevations Above see level are about 20m at the tee, 2m in the middle and say 4 to 5 at the green site. The land also falls off left at the green site..
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

David Harshbarger

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 08:44:35 PM »
Dieter,

My take on what you describe is a fair but challenging hole that people enjoy.  Matthew Peterson's comment about the challenge in club selection captures the interest, and if it is the only hole of that type on the course, I think it plays well. 

Where is this, in general?

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 02:36:44 AM »
Dave, in Gerneral it is in Tasmania. To be more specific Type Claremont Golf Club Tasmania into Google earth.

Lovely spot, terrible golf course, very small plot of land (Approx 99 Acres). I learnt to play golf there and my dad was a member for 50 years up until his death 2 years ago. So, I have a personal attachment to the place and both Dad and I spent many hours looking at ways to improve the course over the years.

The Club is in huge financial trouble with a big loan due for repayment in a couple of months. They are working on a way out which invovles developing accommodation and hotel facilities. The hope is to get enough money from this to rebuild the golf course too. The development is likley to take out another 8 Acres (a pracftice area, half the 18th hole and the last 150m of the 17th all to the east of the clubhouse) so they will only be left with just over 90 Acres so it is very tight. I reckon you can find a really good par 67 or 68 course just shy of 6000 yards though.

If you are interested - the area I am "planning" to build this par 3 is backwards down part of the current 13th hole. The tee would be about 80 metres South of the small round dam in the centre of the property (42 47'35.27 South 147 16' 27.79 E).  The green would be South west from the Tee down near the small bay at the southern point of the poperty (42 47' 41 South 147 16' 21.35 East). It would be the only hole of this type on the course. There are a couple of other downhill shots but much shorter.

Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 02:49:43 AM »
Emile, thanks for that link. I would definitely not make it blind, there is room for a 35 wide by 15m deep tee if you need plus the fact that the green site is slightly raised up in the other side means that it would be fully visible. Like the 13th at Hollinwell referred to in the link, there could also be stepped tees down the hill if necessary.

Making that kind of shot blind would be bad. Reminds me of a hole I played in Sydney once. The Club is called northbridge and their "signature hole" is the 5th. From most of the tee you need to hit and then run forward to try and see where your ball has gone. The drop is massive. Stupid hole, stupid course.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Jud_T

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 03:46:11 AM »
Another consideration is how would the hole affect walkability.  Is there a steep climb on the subsequent hole?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 07:46:49 AM »
Hi jud. Walk ability is not effected here. The land undulates but there is one very steep section which currently you have to play and walk straight up but I am reversing.  The walk from my new green site to any tee site would be no more than a 2 to 3 meter uphill. Good point though.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

David_Tepper

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 08:39:53 AM »
Two more "drop shot" par-3's are #5 on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club (140-170 yards) and #4 on the Presidio GC in San Francisco (110-130 yards). The former could be the most largest difference in height from tee to green I have ever seen.

One thing to consider is that the greens on these holes take a real beating from balls landing on them from such heights. It is probably important to make sure greens on these holes drain well and stay relatively firm. Otherwise, they will become riddled with ballmarks.  
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 08:47:18 AM by David_Tepper »

Don Hyslop

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:42:09 PM by Don Hyslop »
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Jim Eder

Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 12:16:14 PM »
Dieter,

Thank you for the wind information. In my opinion that wind will allow you to do more with the hole. Thanks

Dieter Jones

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Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 02:28:06 AM »
Jim, Interested to hear your suggestions as to the options opened up by having the wind blowing that way.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Jim Eder

Re: Par 3s or approach shots to greens well below the tee (fairway)
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 10:24:41 AM »
Dieter,

I was thinking vs having the wind blowing directly into the player. If the hole played significantly into the wind and downhill I think one has to be careful about having too penal of hazards short and long because of the challenge of ballooning the shot or cutting right through the wind and being long.

Depending on what you want, I think an angled green kind of with the wind could be interesting where one could ride the wind and run it to a back pin etc. A bunker short and middle could be interesting for the short and overdrawn shot, maybe a grass bunker behind or contoured shaved area. You could slope the green back left to front right to help the player hold the green but then have a fairly decent drop off at the back left which would make going long a bit of a difficult recovery. I think it depends on how easy or how difficult you would like to make it. You could do a lot of things depending on what you really want from the hole.

I just think when one has to hit from an elevated tee into the wind one an architect needs to be careful as only the skilled player can really play that shot consistently well and the average golfer would tend to balloon the shot and end up short or take too much club and hit it long.

I hope that helps a little.

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