Silloth - the best and the worst ?

[Niall C]

For those that have played the course, particularly the BUDA guys who played it this last week, what is the best/favourite hole and why, and similarly what is the worst/least favourite hole and why ?

And if that doesn't exercise you enough, whats the greatest strength of the course and whats its biggest weakness ?

Niall

[James Boon]

Niall,

Ben and I were discussing which hole was best while driving home. We didn't really come up with one to be honest as the strength across the whole course was pretty even.

When trying to decide the best holes on a course, I often try and think how if you could pick up a hole and drop it on a top class course, said hole would be complimentary or an improvement.

Having had a little time to think it over, I love the 9th (short par 3 with plenty of trouble for a miss) and 10th (short par 4, dogleg  left, driveable for most in the right conditions, but OoB right on the approach). I think you could drop either of those into some of the finer links courses, many of which dont have a short par 3 or driveable par 4, and they would certainly fit in very well.

Cheers,

James

[Martin Toal]

I think there are many great holes on Silloth, and the 3rd, 4th, 7th are obviously interesting ones, but I also think the 2nd is a much overlooked great little hole. Short, and an apparently easy tee shot to leave a short second, but my recollection is that a lot fewer people walk off with birdie than expect to do so from the tee.

[Mark Pearce]

Really tricky to pick a favourite.  Each of  1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 9, 12, 13 and17has arguments in it's favour in my book.  The hole I could miss outmost readily is 15.  It's not a bad hole by any means butdidn't excite me like the others.

[Ben Stephens]

Niall

in reply to your question - I would have to say for me:

BEST - 3rd Hole what a hole and a great green location - was this suggested by Mackenzie?? (closely followed by 18th which I thought was a great finishing hole whether it was downwind or into the wind)

WORST - 7th Hole - particularly because of the green site - it was difficult to get close to the flag at anytime. It would still be a good hole if the green or flag was made more visible

Overall there is not much difference between best and worst at Silloth which is unusual for a golf course.

Also there were very few bunkers and yet the course was very challenging with a lot of intimidating tee shots

Cheers
Ben

[Jonathan Davison]

Although I did not attend the Buda I have played Silloth a number of times. For me the front nine is streets ahead, I love the start 1,2,3,4, 6,9. The back nine is a little bit less quirky, its needs a bit more fun.

[Mark Pearce]

Although I did not attend the Buda I have played Silloth a number of times. For me the front nine is streets ahead, I love the start 1,2,3,4, 6,9. The back nine is a little bit less quirky, its needs a bit more fun.

Interesting.  That's what I used to think.  You're right that the back nine is less quirky, except that 13 and 14 are pretty damn quirky, but whenever I play there now I always find myself surprised at how much better the back 9 is than I first thought. 

[Niall C]

I think there are many great holes on Silloth, and the 3rd, 4th, 7th are obviously interesting ones, but I also think the 2nd is a much overlooked great little hole. Short, and an apparently easy tee shot to leave a short second, but my recollection is that a lot fewer people walk off with birdie than expect to do so from the tee.

Martin

Absolutely agree about the second. A deceptively difficult tee shot as there is less room to cut the corner than you think. Unfortunately both the pin positions we had were for the back to middle portion of the green such that we didn't get the front left pin position on top of the mound on the front left quarter of the green. A shame as that pin position is one of the best on the course IMO.

Ben

The position of the 3rd green was indeed suggested by MacKenzie although he had nothing to do with the construction. The original green position was in the hollow below the marker pole that you see on your drive. A great hole in a great stretch of golf. The view from the tee promises much and I think when you walk over the rise to see where your ball is and the green is one of the best walks in golf. Same with the 4th tee shot. Its the element of blindness mixed with anticipation generated by the glimpses of backdrop and surrounding dunes that make it special which is why I'm a bit surprised by your lack of love for the 7th.

I think the 7th is the best use of a fairway contour for a drive that I can think of. A diagonal drive from an off set tee where the optimal line is to carry the heather and go up the left so that you land left of the ridge the runs diagonally across the fairway. To land to the right of the ridge means not only loss of distance as your ball kicks to the right rather than up the line of the hole but also means you are likely to be playing from the right of the fairway which is the harder line in. Its certainly a hole that needs a few plays to learn the contours. 

Jonathon/Mark,

I think you sum it up very nicely. The front nine are perhaps the poster boys while the back nine are less obviously fun in comparison but still great golf nonetheless.

James

The 9th - is it a Postage Stamp template hole or not ?

All

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the monotony of opening with four straight par 4's  I'm also surprised no one has mentioned the par 3 15th as one of the weaker holes but thats maybe more to do with how that hole doesn't suit my game.

Niall 

[Rich Goodale]

Niall

IMHO, the strengths of Silloth lie in the variety of holes and the subtlleties of the green contours.  The weaknesses lie in a bit too much blindness and too little width in the green surrounds.

These judgements are slightly supercritical in that I think that Silloth is inherently a "better" course than excellent previous BUDA venues such as Brora, Lundin and Alwoodley.

Rich

[James Boon]

Niall,

I haven't played the original Postage Stamp, but I did hear several people refer to it as such this week gone. It does though seem that any short par 3 with plenty of bunkers gets termed Postage Stamp like without having any specific characteristic of the hole beyond those mentioned...

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

The best feature of Silloth has to be the terrain.  The worst are lack of space to play and number of driver-wedge thru 8 iron holes. 

Favourite hole is either 3 or 4. 

Least favourite holes are 8, 11, 14, 17 & 18.  Would probably pick either 14 or 17 if forced. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I used to think of 17 and 18 as weaker holes but over the past couple of years have come to regard them as an excellent closing pair of holes.  17 is a par 5 that offers the chance to get home in 2 if you hit the right side of the fairway but, conversely, the green can be harder to hit with a wedge third.  The 18th can require a wedge 2nd but again, can be hard to hit when firm and downwind.  Into the wind it's a beast.

[Scott Warren]

Did you guys get to play from the members' tees at Buda, rather than the ladies' tees like poor old Sean?

[Mark Pearce]

We played off the yellow tees, which were all pretty much where the yellows measure from.  We could have played from the whites but, particularly in the wind of Thursday and Friday, I didn't hear anyone suggesting that the course wasn't plenty long enough.......

[Niall C]

Niall,

I haven't played the original Postage Stamp, but I did hear several people refer to it as such this week gone. It does though seem that any short par 3 with plenty of bunkers gets termed Postage Stamp like without having any specific characteristic of the hole beyond those mentioned...

Cheers,

James

James

It was probably me you heard refer to it as a Postage Stamp hole. Others, notably Lynn, disagreed. In terms of characteristics its similar to the 8th at Troon in the following respects;

- similar length of hole
- elevated tee on dune ridge playing to narrow green benched into hillside
- bunkers front and sides with fall off on right and higher ground on left
- both holes play directly into prevailing wind

I recall taking a friend for his first game at Silloth. He's a long time member at Troon and without any prompting from me he called it the Postage Stamp as soon as he stepped onto the tee and saw the hole.

Sean

We had the discussion of length at Silloth (or lack of it) previously and clearly you had one of those days that we both know you can get on links, with benign or helpful winds/forward tees and plenty of run. If you had been at the BUDA you were playing shoprt iron approaches it would likely have been for your 3rd or 4th shot.

That aside I agree with your choice of favourite holes although hard to choose a least favourite given my love for the place but 16th (not 15 as I wrongly typed in my previous post) would be my choice.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

From what I was told, you played in extreme conditions.  While it is helpful to see a course in those conditions, I would suggest that a yardage flow for the course is better determined in a "normal" wind which I believe we had.  My criticism(s) wouldn't in any way stop me from re-visiting because the course is very good no matter how one slices it. 

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

Niall,

I haven't played the original Postage Stamp, but I did hear several people refer to it as such this week gone. It does though seem that any short par 3 with plenty of bunkers gets termed Postage Stamp like without having any specific characteristic of the hole beyond those mentioned...

Cheers,

James

I haven't played the Troon postage stamp either, but that green at Silloth can be rather difficult to hit and or hold in the wind. Typically it plays a punchy shortish iron, but I have played a sand iron down a strong wind and a 4 iron into a gale. Funny enough the 4 iron worked out better.

[Mark Pearce]

Niall

From what I was told, you played in extreme conditions.  While it is helpful to see a course in those conditions, I would suggest that a yardage flow for the course is better determined in a "normal" wind which I believe we had.  My criticism(s) wouldn't in any way stop me from re-visiting because the course is very good no matter how one slices it. 

Ciao

Actually, Sean, we were very lucky.  We saw the course in 3 very different sets of conditions.  On the Wednesday it was reasonably calm, with a slight NNW breeze (so helping from the right on 9, for instance).  On the Thursday, it was very, very windy (25-30mph and borderline playable) from the SW, so against and from the right on 9.  At that hole most players were hitting their 200-210 yard club to a 120 yard pin.  On the Friday we saw it in a stiff breeze.  I know Niall says he doesn't recall a prevailing wind but Friday's wind was from the direction I expect to get at Silloth and was slightly gentler than I think of as typical.  I'd say it was a 2 club wind.

I didn't hear anyone complain on any day that the course was too short.  Indeed, there was no desire at all to play from the white tees, which lots of BUDAites did last year at Liphook.  Silloth at 6150 in benign, tough then typical conditions was plenty of golf course for everyone.

I'm really struggling with this criticism of the course from you, because I find it so difficult to correlate.  When we played with Brian and Boony at Notts, you complained that you thought we were playing the course from too far back.  I felt the length was OK.  I think we're similar length golfers.  Yet you criticise Silloth for being too short.  You are the only person I have ever heard that complaint from.  I really can't help wondering which tees (or rather, where the yellow tees were), when you played there.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I am not complaining about the length of Silloth, more the rhythm on the front nine; 6100 yards is more than enough length for a links to challenge club players.  There are a lot of driver-wedge/8 iron holes.  While I prefer the front nine to the back because I think its better golfing country, the back nine mixes up the yardages far better. 

I can't say where the markers were only that we played the yellows in a decent breeze; 10-12ish mph (which is averagish) into and slightly across from the left on the first hole.  A look at the card reveals six par 4s (all of them!) on the front nine between 311 and 371 yards.  While there are plenty of elevation changes, they don't in total effect playing yardage all that much. 

I am not overly fussed about the dodgy rhythm, but I do think it is a weakness.  Either way, it isn't a deal breaker between Silloth being good or great.  While I like Silloth, I think it falls well short of great.  I said it before, I use Burnham and Pennard as measuring sticks and neither of those two are great courses, yet I don't believe Silloth is as good as either of them.     

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Regarding the 9th, the only time I came close to that green was on Friday when I nutted a 4-iron straight over the pin to 20 yards deep into the boondai.  Fortunatley, my opponent was hors de combat after 5 or 6 shots in the left-side gunge.  I think in the winds we played at Silloth any and all greens were "postage stamps."

PS--on one of my early games at Troon, I hit THE postage stamp 30 ft left of a middle right pin.  After a downwind birdie putt which shaved the hole before trickling into the Tiger bunker I eventually holed out for an 11.  Now that is a POSTAGE STAMP!

[Sean_A]

Rihc

Yes, the plateau nature with a tilt away from the dune of TPS is markedly different from Silloth's 9th. 

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong.  First, 10-12 mph winds at Silloth are less than average (perhaps significantly) in my experience of, perhaps, 20-25 games there.  Second, the rhythm and lengths on the front 9 do play very differently.  On Friday, I reckon for me, 1 was Driver/6I, 2 was utility/8I, 3 driver/5I, 4 utility/PW, 7 driver/utility, 8 I made a mess of the drive but probably driver/7I.  That's enough variety for me.  Even on a still day I'm not sure that there are any holes that really play "the same", since the shots required to hit, say, 1 and 3 are very, very different shots due to the greensites, whatever club you have in your hand.

[Mark Pearce]

Rihc

Yes, the plateau nature with a tilt away from the dune of TPS is markedly different from Silloth's 9th. 

Ciao 

Agreed.  Aside from the length and heavy bunkering, these are two very different holes.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong.  First, 10-12 mph winds at Silloth are less than average (perhaps significantly) in my experience of, perhaps, 20-25 games there.  Second, the rhythm and lengths on the front 9 do play very differently.  On Friday, I reckon for me, 1 was Driver/6I, 2 was utility/8I, 3 driver/5I, 4 utility/PW, 7 driver/utility, 8 I made a mess of the drive but probably driver/7I.  That's enough variety for me.  Even on a still day I'm not sure that there are any holes that really play "the same", since the shots required to hit, say, 1 and 3 are very, very different shots due to the greensites, whatever club you have in your hand.

Mark

You could well be right that the average wind is more like 15ish mph (which would be quite high) - which would make a perceptible difference.  Combine that with the possibility that our tees were ahead of the yellows and that could explain the relatively similar approach distances.

That said, all I can speak to is my experience and a 60 yard range difference in the front nine par 4s at least suggests the issue I raised is a possibility.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Looking at the card, I'd agree with you.  I can only say that from my experience of playing there that has never been a problem and that you are the only person who has commented on it.  I'd love to hear from other BUDAites as to whether it was an issue for any of them on any of the days, particularly the relatively still Wednesday.