Yale vs Princeton and Subtlety

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

We have a recent thread discussing college venues and their Golfweek rankings.

Yale/ Seth Raynor = Number one

Princeton (Springdale GC)/ William Flynn (revised) = not mentioned

Why does Raynor trump Flynn?  Is it because Raynor presents bold in your face redoubts while Flynn's course presents a much more subtle challenge. In actuality, the two golf courses are polar opposites.

Slope from the blue tees...

Princeton Slope =131
Yale slope =132

Why doesn't  the subtle architecture of the Flynn golf course at Princeton which resists scoring just as well as Yale not make this list of best college courses?

Why don't we enjoy subtlety in golf architecture?

[Sean_A]

Malcom

I don't know anything about Yale or Princeton, but I like subtle architecture probably as much as anybody.  18 holes or even 12 holes of subtle is a tough sell because subtle is hard to do well.  I can't think of a single subtle course I played that I would call great.  For me, subtle is best used as a way to balance against (and partly justify) more wild golf. Getting that balance of the number and type of subtle holes must be hard for archies to get right.  Plus, in this day of hit and run golf, players don't spend enough time at any given course to truly discern between subtle and dull.  But mainly, I think archies are afraid to build subtle golf (if they have any sort of a healthy budget).  I believe that much of what we see in courses today is a way to justify fees so the battle of bold has been raging for many a decade.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Why doesn't  the subtle architecture of the Flynn golf course at Princeton which resists scoring just as well as Yale not make this list of best college courses?

Why don't we enjoy subtlety in golf architecture?

Malcolm,

While I have yet to play Springdale, I have have seen enough of it walking around it and driving around it on numerous trips to Princeton to say that the land that the two sit on can't be compared.

Yale is just a horrible piece of property. Rocky, very rocky terrain with lots of clay in a dense wooded forest in 1925 was just crazy to even think of putting a golf course there. Yet, the terrain IS what makes Yale so unique. Yale has probably the least amount of fairway bunkers of any top rated course because of the skillful way that MacRaynor built and routed the course. The drama of the MacRaynor bunkering on that terrain create bunkers as big as Sand Hills in some cases (#2 green, #8 green). That is the stuff that raters and hit and runners love.

Give Flynn a great piece of land and you get Shinnecock, and Shinnecock is subtle in spots, but its is not a subtle course and again it is the land that makes the course.

That said, Yale is my 2-3 times a month course (not this year ) and if I was at a different stage of life and played on an everyday basis, I think I would rather play Springdale based on what I have seen.  

[Joe Bausch]

Photo tour of Springdale here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49874.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

We have a recent thread discussing college venues and their Golfweek rankings.

Yale/ Seth Raynor = Number one

Princeton (Springdale GC)/ William Flynn (revised) = not mentioned

Why does Raynor trump Flynn?

He doesn't, but Yale is a far better and far more dramatic golf course.
The topography alone is far more dramatic.
Some claim that Spingdale has some weak and boring holes.
I don't think you'll find many making that claim about Yale

Is it because Raynor presents bold in your face redoubts while Flynn's course presents a much more subtle challenge.

First, The terrain is so different at both courses, that irrespective of the architects involved, you were going to get two dramatically different courses.
Secondly, like it or not, the templates and/or variations of the templates have survived and have been well received for over a century.
There's a familiarity and acceptance of those holes as quality holes, regardless of their location and when you marry them with excellent or unique locations you get widespread recognition of their merits.

In actuality, the two golf courses are polar opposites.

That's more a function of the topography.

Slope from the blue tees...

Princeton Slope =131
Yale slope =132

Why doesn't  the subtle architecture of the Flynn golf course at Princeton which resists scoring just as well as Yale not make this list of best college courses?

I find Yale to be far more difficult, irrespective of the slope.
I'm not so sure that those rating the courses got it right.

Why don't we enjoy subtlety in golf architecture?

On what basis are you claiming we don't ?

[Tim Martin]

Just for perspective the slope at Yale is 140 and not 132 as stated in the OP.

[Tim Gavrich]

I haven't played Springdale (hopefully sometime), but having played Flynn's Cascades, I give the edge to Yale, though that back nine at Cascades is pretty phenomenal. I think the subtle stuff is wonderful, but the drama and contextual manufacturing that seems to mark not just Yale but other Macdonald/Raynor/et al courses is more visually stimulating, to me anyway.

[Alex Lagowitz]

I think you are being quite stubborn.  It is not that Raynor is trumping Flynn.  This is not a battle of architects.  Put simply, Springdale is an average golf course.  And thats honestly it.  I can think of maybe 2 or 3 holes on Springdale that would barely (probably not) be better than any of the 18 holes at Yale.  I would not consider Springdale to be a fully restored Flynn design either, so that would not be fair to say it to be his work.

[David Cronheim]

I think Princeton is a perfectly lovely members' golf course, but I agree with Alex's assessment. I think it's a good course, but Yale is a world-class course. I also wonder whether the express intention of building a course that was friendly to students resulted in an easier layout that it might have otherwise. Of course, I also don't think it's fair to compare the two as "Raynor vs. Flynn" because Flynn only did a redesign. I NEVER think it's an apples to apples comparison when a redesign is stacked up against an original. In a redesign, the architect has to work within the parameters of what someone else has done and his role is often far more limited by the constraints placed on him by the club. With a blank canvas, an architect has far more freedom than he does working within an existing routing.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Tim,

I know you play at Yale so I accede to your input re: slope at Yale. I had to rely on the internet for that info and the majority said 132.

Alex,

Ouch! This is what I mean about subtlety. Whenever I talk with good players about Springdale, often members of the golf team, they exclaim that it plays a lot harder than it looks, ergo this thread. I'm not sure what meets your threshold for a full restoration but rebuilding and in a few cases moving the green pads, re-bunkering and in a few cases rerouting holes works for me.

Pat and Mike,

Then why do we love those relatively flat links land courses so much? The subtle dunes?

[David Cronheim]

Malcolm,

I concede that it plays harder than it looks, but it doesn't look or play particularly hard. I'm all for subtlety, but I don't see Springdale having more than three or four holes that I consider all that noteworthy. I don't find the design particularly, subtle, I just find it to be somewhat uninspired. I think many on this site feel similarly - good course for sure, but not great.

Look at it this way don't think even the most ardent Flynn fan would note it as one of his top designs, whereas most Raynor fans would consider Yale to be amongst his best, if not his best. Assuming arguendo that both Raynor and Flynn are similarly highly regarded, the fact that Yale is one of Raynor's best and Springdale is not considered one of Flynn's would seem to support a conclusion that the Yale course viewed (rightly or wrongly) as being objectively better. Again, redesign vs. original, boring piece of land vs. one-of-a-kind property...all of these factors play a role, but I don't think people fail to comprehend the subtleties of Springdale, they just prefer Yale.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Malcom,

Who really cares what Golfweek thinks, or the band of raters?  Very little value to be had from these rankings or ratings.  Seriously.  
They have that "Tiger Tracker" column.  That should tell you all you need to know.  

The whole thing is apples and oranges, meaning, the land and courses Yale and Springdale.  If you like it, it is good.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and Mike,

Then why do we love those relatively flat links land courses so much?

Because they tend to be next to oceans and get great winds

The subtle dunes?

There's nothing subtle about the dunes at Prestwick, Troon, Western Gales, Trump, Turnberry and others, so I don't know how you can state that
links land courses have subtle dunes.  Have you played any of the courses I just mentioned ?
What "Links land" courses have you played ?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

No golf today but I can tell you about  those persistent ocean winds since I am currently recumbent  in a beach chair over in Sea Girt, NJ. There must be at least  50 stars and stripes  crowning poles along Ocean avenue and they are all ripping,

[Anthony Butler]

I haven't played Springdale (hopefully sometime), but having played Flynn's Cascades, I give the edge to Yale, though that back nine at Cascades is pretty phenomenal. I think the subtle stuff is wonderful, but the drama and contextual manufacturing that seems to mark not just Yale but other Macdonald/Raynor/et al courses is more visually stimulating, to me anyway.

It might have some Flynn in it.. but on first inspection (I had a meeting in Princeton back in late March and took a quick ride around the course with a work colleague who is a Princeton alum and resident of Princeton, NJ) it's hard to see how Springdale measures up to either Yale or some of Flynn's other courses...  Few exceptional land forms on the property and no holes that take advantage of the land in a memorable way. Looked like a couple of decent holes on away from the road that separates it from the Princeton campus...

Others who have played it some, plus other campus courses rate it behind Michigan, Ohio and Stanford... I saw it as being close in appearance and interest to the Duke course... Withholding judgement until I can play it next summer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

No golf today but I can tell you about  those persistent ocean winds since I am currently recumbent  in a beach chair over in Sea Girt, NJ. There must be at least  50 stars and stripes  crowning poles along Ocean avenue and they are all ripping,

Spring Lake, Deal, Hollywood, Manasquan River and others must be great to play today.

There's nothing like the wind to acentuate the golfing experience.

[Alex Lagowitz]

I am not trying to be harsh at all, just honest.  Springdale is a great daily course in which I would be ecstatic to have as a college student or member.  However, I strongly disagree in its consideration as a difficult golf course.
Yale would play 3 or 4 shots harder in relation to par, especially if the pins were in hard places.

I have played Springdale three times, and have a good picture of the entire course.  I really like the hole that runs to the left of the steeple (drivable par 4).