[Bill Brightly]

I think the most over rated course attribute on this site is its design.  I think that much of what repeated plays at a beloved course reveals to us has less to do with the architect's work than it does with the qualities of the site in its natural state, with changing weather/wind patterns, with the vagaries of shot-making for every individual golfer, shot by shot and round by round, with happenstance and randomness, with good and bad choices regarding maintenance, and with the deeply interested but gentle gaze that love itself produces in us. I think that every architect who has a solid and personal understanding of/insight into the fundamental principles of good giolf course architecture and who is dedicated to making these manifest on the ground should be thanked for the gifts they give us; but I think said architects are responsible for less than half of the design, i.e. less than half of what we experience on their golf courses.   

Peter

Geeze, Peter. I have been formulating a response to this question for a few days and was just about ready to write my answer... (I was going to say the ground game, because so many locations don't allow for sensible use of a ground game) and you have to blow us away with that inightful observation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

The game of golf is one of hit your ball, go find it, and hit it again until you get the ball in the hole.

Basically, with caveats.

Do you not agree?

See the above answer


Unfortunately, human foibles seem to sneak into evaluating this game. Humans seem to like water features they find in nature, so the go about creating water features next to their homes, etc.

Agree.
Water has an almost universal appeal.

Face it. They just can't do it as well as the almighty.

I think they get pretty close, so close in some cases that you can't differentiate between the two.
Pine Valley would be an excellent example, as would The Creek and Seminole.

Furthermore, their emotions get the better of them when it comes to evaluating such things.

Agreed

In the eye of some beholders, these features are wonderful. In the eye of other beholders they may be truly abysmal.

Agree, but at some point one must question or evaluate the discerning value of those eyes.


I wonder how they fair in the eye of the almighty.

I don't think he's playing golf on Saturdays and Sundays.

But back to golf. These man made water features interrupt the game.

I don't think you can make a universal statement like that.
I don't see that at Yale, Seminole, Pine Valley, NGLA, GCGC, Baltusrol, WFE, ANGC and many, many other courses.

It is no longer hit your ball go find it, and hit it again. It is hit your ball; begin loop while last ball hit has disappeared in an artificial pond drop a ball and hit the new ball; end loop; find last ball not hit in artificial pond; and hit it again.

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
Crump and Colt, CBM, DR, WF and other architects seem to have been very successful at integrating the two.

I can turn the beautiful game into a mindless endeavor.

Again, doesn't that depend upon the talent of the architect and the budget he's given.

How did Fazio and Wynn fare on a barrn desert flood plain when they artificially crafted Shadow Creek with it's water features ?

So it seems your folly is you let your emotions get the best of you and degrade the game for any emotional appeal you may find in water features.

My emotions have nothing to do with my assessment.

Why it seems you clearly think Pebble Beach is a better course because of its proximity to water, then if it was not near water.

It's not it's proximity to the water, it's the fact that the water is an integral part of the golf course, and that the course sits up on a high bluff where the ocean is a lateral hazard.

If the course was located inland, but on a high bluff with a huge artificial lake where the Pacific resides, and it was swept by similar winds, would it be a substantively lesser design ?

[Garland Bayley]

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
...

Nope

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
...

I would suggest that there are water features where you can't tell the difference as to whether they're natural or man made.

Then where do you stand ?

Nope

[Garland Bayley]

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
...

I would suggest that there are water features where you can't tell the difference as to whether they're natural or man made.

Then where do you stand ?

Nope

They put it there, they ruined the golf. That's where I stand. It is no longer hit the ball, find it, hit it again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
...

I would suggest that there are water features where you can't tell the difference as to whether they're natural or man made.

Then where do you stand ?

Nope

They put it there, they ruined the golf. That's where I stand. It is no longer hit the ball, find it, hit it again.

Yeah, but you don't know that they put it there.

Is ignorance bliss with you ?

If you don't know, it's great, but if you do know, it's ruined ?

[Garland Bayley]

Doesn't that depend upon the architect's ability to integrate water features with the golf course and the play of the golf course ?
...

I would suggest that there are water features where you can't tell the difference as to whether they're natural or man made.

Then where do you stand ?

Nope

They put it there, they ruined the golf. That's where I stand. It is no longer hit the ball, find it, hit it again.

Yeah, but you don't know that they put it there.

Is ignorance bliss with you ?

If you don't know, it's great, but if you do know, it's ruined ?

It's never great.
It's generally discernible.
The least discernible would be on old courses where weather and time have had a chance to naturalize them.

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