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Bart Bradley

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What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« on: September 01, 2012, 10:28:43 PM »
Is width over-rated?  How about quirk?  How about internal green contours?  How about walkability?  How about affordability?  Or my favorite:  ability to play with one ball (dudes, hit it where you can find it!)?

Surely this group over-emphasizes some things?  What are they?

Bart

Jason Walker

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Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 10:32:34 PM »
The 'ground game'

Mark Saltzman

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Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 10:37:44 PM »
The 'ground game'

Jason, I partly agree with you.  I think there are courses that were designed with the ground game in mind and on those courses firm conditions and the use of the ground game makes the strategic design come alive.

But, I think there are some courses which were not designed with the ground game in mind, and that is just fine with me. 

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 10:42:30 PM »
proximity to water.

Too many holes in my mind are viewed as great just because they are near the ocean, even though in many cases the ocean doesnt come into play.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 10:50:47 PM »
proximity to water.

Too many holes in my mind are viewed as great just because they are near the ocean, even though in many cases the ocean doesnt come into play.

Mark:

Would you say that is more of a problem on this site or with the golfing public in general?

I agree that it is over-valued, but I think that is true among most circles.  Not just here.

Bart

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 10:54:22 PM »
proximity to water.

Too many holes in my mind are viewed as great just because they are near the ocean, even though in many cases the ocean doesnt come into play.

Any examples? Don't say 16 at Cypress.  I already got in trouble for that.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 12:46:37 AM »
Sad to say, but the most overrated may very well be strategy.  I want strategy to be the most important thing about GCA, but fear that for 99% of golfers it is largely a non-factor.  A couple of others to consider are dinging courses for having too many holes playing the same direction and par 3s of similar length.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 01:13:43 AM »
I'll go with 'the look' of bunkers.  Lacy or hairy lipped bunkers look attractive yet if not placed well are just eye candy.  For instance, I've played Wild Horse when the bunkers were nude lipped, not fringed with native grass and mowed to intermediate rough cut right up to the edge.  They looked nude and plain, yet played just fine, maybe even better when they allowed balls to roll into them more easily.  No doubt they look better and more in tune with the native grasses when maintained hairy, but I think the case for over-rated based merely on "the look" can be made.  That goes for the puffy upholstered look, and the green wave over look.  All are pleasing to look at in their best presentations, but if they adorn a superfluous or out of play bunker, they are wasted expense and become eye-candy, IMO.

I'm not saying I don't like to look at them, however.  Sort of like a nude lady, I guess.  ::) 8)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 02:01:59 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 01:38:07 AM »
proximity to water.

Too many holes in my mind are viewed as great just because they are near the ocean, even though in many cases the ocean doesnt come into play.

Any examples? Don't say 16 at Cypress.  I already got in trouble for that.

Mark,

I hope your original post on CPC  didn't demean the hole in any way. I would say that the ocean does indeed come into play.

Bob

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 01:49:46 AM »
Bunkers for the bunker sluts.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 03:53:55 AM »
Being private and located in north east America.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 04:08:09 AM »
I'll give two.

1) Templates.  Get over it already.  They're cool.  So was Deion Sanders.  But no need to trot him out every time we need to sell something to middle aged football fans.  Just like we don't always have to trot out templates to explain golf holes.

2) "Kickplates" or "sideboards" or whatever else you want to call it.  I understand and agree that Ballyneal #7 may be the coolest second shot in golf for the different options it provides with that huge mound.  But we pay too much attention to external contour around here like it is the sign of architecture genius.  Sometimes, it's just the right place to put a green and not rocket science.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 04:20:35 AM »
Its difficult to over-rate width since ever so few courses can be considered wide. 

I don't think playing with one ball is a problem either because it suggests all sorts of elements about a design that really do make golf more playable and pleasurable for a great percentage of golfers.  If archies stuck to the one ball mantra these past 30 years we would have better courses. 

I am not sure it is GCA.com wide, but bunker look seems to be a drool factor.  This isn't a problem per se, but we would be better off focusing first on placement.

My guess would be templates and strategy (which are linked) are drooled over too much; especially when we consider that it isn't clear a Biarritz or Short are really all that great in concept. 

Maybe a bit too much emphasis is placed on green contours, but I don't get to see too many courses with strong contours so I am not sure. 

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 05:27:27 AM »
The 'ground game'

Jason,
I agree. Ground game is about climate/location. Some places just can't do it. That doesn't make them good or bad golf courses.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 08:07:13 AM »
Walkability is WAY over-rated on this site relative to everyone else's view of golf that I play with who isn't a member of this site.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2012, 08:22:54 AM »
Mac...

Your post got me thinking about the difference between walkability of design and walking.

If presented with an either/or choice between a world where every course achieved walkability versus a world without that constraint, I say the former would be a far better place in which to play golf -- even if you never walked.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:25:12 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 08:32:50 AM »
Designed by [name of GCA rated GCA].
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 08:43:06 AM »
proximity to water.

Too many holes in my mind are viewed as great just because they are near the ocean, even though in many cases the ocean doesnt come into play.

Any examples? Don't say 16 at Cypress.  I already got in trouble for that.

Mark,

I hope your original post on CPC  didn't demean the hole in any way. I would say that the ocean does indeed come into play.

Bob

Bob, I didn't properly read Mark Johnson's post.  Yes, I am certain the ocean comes into play at Cypress Point! 

Re 16, I just asked a question and I am happy to say at least it created some interesting debate.  Having never played the hole I don't have a strong opinion and I couldn't do more than ask. 

Phil McDade

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Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2012, 08:47:47 AM »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2012, 08:53:00 AM »
Bunkers that really only serve as eye candy.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2012, 08:55:36 AM »
Bunkers that really only serve as eye candy.

Sure you didn't mean to post this on your underrated thread?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 09:03:19 AM »
Mark - nah - many of us fall in love with bunkers that don't serve to improve the quality of the play of a hole but look great.

Redanman says it right - it's a "bunker fetish"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2012, 09:24:11 AM »
Most of the 'liked' things on here are not popular opinion and a lot of the popular 'liked' things are unliked by this site.

Very few courses can have width and rarely does it look good. Its also at the other end of the spectrum to how 99% think the game should be played. 
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2012, 09:44:31 AM »
I'll go with 'the look' of bunkers.  Lacy or hairy lipped bunkers look attractive yet if not placed well are just eye candy.  For instance, I've played Wild Horse when the bunkers were nude lipped, not fringed with native grass and mowed to intermediate rough cut right up to the edge.  They looked nude and plain, yet played just fine, maybe even better when they allowed balls to roll into them more easily.  No doubt they look better and more in tune with the native grasses when maintained hairy, but I think the case for over-rated based merely on "the look" can be made.  That goes for the puffy upholstered look, and the green wave over look.  All are pleasing to look at in their best presentations, but if they adorn a superfluous or out of play bunker, they are wasted expense and become eye-candy, IMO.

I'm not saying I don't like to look at them, however.  Sort of like a nude lady, I guess.  ::) 8)

I'm with RJ.

This site, and golfers in general, have a bunker fetish.
Very few bunkers are "essential" to strategy, usually they reinforce what is already in the land and the vast majority of bunkering, even by popular architects, is strictly for visual stimulation.

Understated or subtle doesn't fly on this site very often.
Too much time is spent on how something looks and almost every instance comes back to visual stimulation... ie. bunkers
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the most over-rated course attribute on this site?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2012, 11:27:40 AM »
Width off the tee as it relates to options. Opining about which side of the fairway you want to approach the green from when 99 percent realistically don't have the ability to aim and hit a certain part of a fairway.

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