News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Integrated Clubs
« on: August 27, 2012, 09:56:05 PM »
I have been a member of one club outside DC for almost 20 years.  I have watched it go from almost all white to a place where African/Americans make up a large portion of the membership.  As a pastor I have watched many churches integrate. Sunday morning worship has been called the most segregated hour of the week.  As kind of a general rule when the population of white churches gets about 1/3 African/American in a few years it becomes almost 100% African/American. There are of course exceptions to this rule.  I served one of them in Baltimore many years ago.

I have watched many of the white members leave my club and it pains me that in this day and age that race still plays a divisive role in our country. It really sickens me when it happens in church and saddens me when it happens at CC Clubs.

I really don't want to open a Pandora's box of social commentary but what has been the experience of other clubs that have a significant mixed race membership?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 10:25:33 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 10:28:45 PM »
Speaking of Chicago, if the President moves back there after he retires and he wants to join a golf club, what club would he join?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 10:33:29 PM »
My former club in the Philly 'burbs,a non-equity corporate owned club, had a great membership  mix  and was completely non discriminatory, racially, religously and there was no gender bias.It opened in 1990.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 10:34:45 PM »
Speaking of Chicago, if the President moves back there after he retires and he wants to join a golf club, what club would he join?

Merit?

On edit and on second thought, Olympia Fields would be easier place to both live and play golf. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 10:40:17 PM by John McCarthy »
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 11:07:00 PM »
Speaking of Chicago, if the President moves back there after he retires and he wants to join a golf club, what club would he join?

Merit?

On edit and on second thought, Olympia Fields would be easier place to both live and play golf. 

Beverly

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 11:13:43 PM »
Speaking of Chicago, if the President moves back there after he retires and he wants to join a golf club, what club would he join?

The real question is what club would want him and where would he fit in?

I think it would have to be a sleepy club so as to put up with the security and what are likely to be, special demands.

It would turn into a real issue a some of the busier clubs.  Butler National / Dunes Club would seem to be most appropriate.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 11:27:21 PM »
Much less a security issue when they are out of office.Still some secret service but not shut down two fairways over.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 01:16:18 AM »
Just goes to show how different the US is to other western countries in that regard (the presidency, not race).

A former Australian prime minister plays at my club. He and two mates have a similar timeslot every Wednesday and Saturday and the fourth spot is filled by whoever puts their name down and there's no security to be seen. Playing with him, you'd not guess he was a long-term national leader, only that his 23 handicap seems generous for how well he hits fairways woods!

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2012, 02:12:05 AM »


 church is different than golf.  Everybody worships.  Not everybody plays (or wants to play) golf.     

How different America must be.

I've no statistics to back up this assertion, but I suspect that more middle-aged men play golf on a Sunday in England than attend church...

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 06:24:24 AM »
And if you go to any of the predominantly Jewish clubs around Manchester you will see a lot of golf being played on a Saturday. Club competitions are held on a Sunday, of course.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 06:43:16 AM »
Just goes to show how different the US is to other western countries in that regard (the presidency, not race).

A former Australian prime minister plays at my club. He and two mates have a similar timeslot every Wednesday and Saturday and the fourth spot is filled by whoever puts their name down and there's no security to be seen. Playing with him, you'd not guess he was a long-term national leader, only that his 23 handicap seems generous for how well he hits fairways woods!

Scott,

Somewhere in the archives is a picture of George Herbert Walker Bush playing Cape Arundel Golf Club with his grandson as we were finishing. I only remember seeing one Secret Service agent. It was low key.

Yale is an integrated university and Yale Golf Club has many local members. New Haven has a large Black population. I have to say before Tommy's thread, I never really thought about how integrated Yale is or is not as a golf club. Certainly it is integrated in comparison to Golf Club Atlas which has waaaay too many white guys!!



I would be curious to hear from our European contingent if Muslims play golf, specially in London area. Here in NY, many Muslims play Cricket but golf does not seem to be a focus.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2012, 10:16:47 AM »
Mike, I've not heard of any Muslims playing golf in the UK, but it is popular with Sikhs and Hindus. For that matter, there are few Afro-Caribbeans, although we have a very active Afro-Caribbean member at Wilmslow. I'm not aware of any Indian ladies playing - but golf is very popular with Jewish ladies. The Jewish clubs that I know are very family orientated.

Religion has been raised concerning Rory McIlroy and the Olympics. He is a Roman Catholic, living in a Protestant area of Belfast. He is entitled to and has a British passport, but any resident of Northern Ireland may elect to have a Republic of Ireland passport, and most such decisions are made on religious grounds. It will be interesting to see who he sides with and what pressures are put on him by both communities.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2012, 11:00:53 AM »
Speaking of Chicago, if the President moves back there after he retires and he wants to join a golf club, what club would he join?
Tom,    It would definitely be Beverly- he played here on Father's Day. In addition, his inner circle of friends are already members. Politics aside , I feel it would be a nice addition to our club. It would be pretty cool to get into a Saturday game with a former President.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 11:22:28 AM »
In the run-up to the 2003 US Open at Olympia Fields, I was handling media interviews for the club and I wound up being interviewed by an African American news anchor who wanted to play the race card as it related to member admissions at the club.  She told the story of an African American banker who bought a home on the 16th hole of the North Course and then walked up to the front door and said he wanted to join the club.  He was turned down somewhat summarily.  He would have been the first black member at Olympia.  She asked me if racism was involved in the decision to turn him down.  "Sure," was my reply, while adding, "but that was years ago.  All of the clubs on the south side now look like the UN.  The better question is why Michael Jordan can't join clubs on the North Shore or why I can't join places like Lake Shore or Northmoor" (Jewish clubs).  I told her that the clubs on the south side of town figured out that they couldn't afford to discriminate anymore, so the times had changed.  The man in question actually joined nearby Flossmoor.  I was one of his sponsors.

There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  It's not the best business model, but some of these places will continue to thrive while others will struggle to find the next generation of members only to relent and stop discriminating.  I will say that I haven't seen any white flight out of clubs after black members begin to become more plentiful.  Personally, I think it's refreshing to see the member ranks look more like America.  I recently hosted a gca guy who is thinking of joining Beverly.  He is an Asian American.  The day he played, he saw a member of Indian descent, several African American members and more than a handful of Jewish members at what has historically been an Irish Catholic club.  He felt welcome, I believe.  We certainly tried to make him feel like he would be happy to be a member and happy to bring his friends out, regardless of their race, ethnicity or faith.

Nothing against the other models, I just happen to think that the non-discriminatory model breeds a happier membership overall.

As for President Obama, whom I've known for many years, I rather doubt that he would join any club after he beats his Vulcan opponent by four points in November and then completes his second term.   ;)  Not enough upside to warrant the grief that he would get in the media.  I would venture to say that he'd be most comfortable at Beverly, however, since we have a lot of members from the Hyde Park/University of Chicago community, including several of his closest friends and the man who gave him his first law job in Chicago.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 11:27:07 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 11:49:11 AM »
I really need to move to the south side...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2012, 11:53:19 AM »
Back in the early 80's I would play a course in the city of North Chicago where me and my boss were the only Caucasians despite him being an Italian American.  I loved the place and was always treated with the upmost respect even though I was woefully underdressed.  I can not remember the name of the course but do remember it overlooking a hospital and having huge low slung power lines running through several holes.  I would bet given the economy that course is fully integrated today.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2012, 12:12:37 PM »
Just a hunch, but I bet the President's first club will be in Hawaii...

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2012, 01:04:54 PM »
There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  
Which course or courses in Chicago do not allow Catholics?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2012, 02:26:48 PM »
There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  
Which course or courses in Chicago do not allow Catholics?

Historically...quite a few, mostly on the North Shore.
H.P.S.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2012, 02:35:36 PM »
There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  
Which course or courses in Chicago do not allow Catholics?

Historically...quite a few, mostly on the North Shore.

C'mon, name names.

Is it only the Jewish ones?  Or does Onwentsia? 

Nowadays I know of a Catholic at Chicago which I always thought was the acme of WASPiness. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2012, 06:58:00 PM »
Just goes to show how different the US is to other western countries in that regard (the presidency, not race).

A former Australian prime minister plays at my club. He and two mates have a similar timeslot every Wednesday and Saturday and the fourth spot is filled by whoever puts their name down and there's no security to be seen.

He's not your average leader though!  This still amuses me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mBShX9fdU
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2012, 07:41:18 PM »
There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  
Which course or courses in Chicago do not allow Catholics?

Several sensible clubs are so inclined. And I, as an Irish Catholic, understand completely!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2012, 07:52:08 PM »
There are still clubs in town that don't allow women, that don't allow Catholics, that don't allow Jews, that don't allow blacks and maybe a couple that don't allow any of the above.  
Which course or courses in Chicago do not allow Catholics?

Several sensible clubs are so inclined. And I, as an Irish Catholic, understand completely!

I'm surprised there are Protestant-only clubs still around.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Sam Morrow

Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2012, 09:39:07 PM »
Just goes to show how different the US is to other western countries in that regard (the presidency, not race).

A former Australian prime minister plays at my club. He and two mates have a similar timeslot every Wednesday and Saturday and the fourth spot is filled by whoever puts their name down and there's no security to be seen. Playing with him, you'd not guess he was a long-term national leader, only that his 23 handicap seems generous for how well he hits fairways woods!

Scott,

Somewhere in the archives is a picture of George Herbert Walker Bush playing Cape Arundel Golf Club with his grandson as we were finishing. I only remember seeing one Secret Service agent. It was low key.

Yale is an integrated university and Yale Golf Club has many local members. New Haven has a large Black population. I have to say before Tommy's thread, I never really thought about how integrated Yale is or is not as a golf club. Certainly it is integrated in comparison to Golf Club Atlas which has waaaay too many white guys!!



I would be curious to hear from our European contingent if Muslims play golf, specially in London area. Here in NY, many Muslims play Cricket but golf does not seem to be a focus.

Richard Choi is offended and I'm part Native American.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Integrated Clubs
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2012, 10:44:51 PM »
Religion has been raised concerning Rory McIlroy and the Olympics. He is a Roman Catholic, living in a Protestant area of Belfast. He is entitled to and has a British passport, but any resident of Northern Ireland may elect to have a Republic of Ireland passport, and most such decisions are made on religious grounds. It will be interesting to see who he sides with and what pressures are put on him by both communities.
Depending on world rankings it will likely be easier to make Team Ireland than Team GB.  The only Golfer with Irl beside their name in the top 100 of the golf rankings as of today) is Padraig.  GMac would not qualify for the Olympics if both he and Rory declared themselves to be on Team GB rather than Team Ireland as the Team GB qualifiers (as of today) would be Rory, Donald, Westwood and Rose.  Team Ireland would be Padraig and Shane Lowry.   If either Rory or GMac declared to be on Ireland they would bump those guys.

And in calling the UK Olympic team "Team GB" rather than "Team UK" or "Team GB&NI" aren't they specifically excluding NI?  After all, isn't the country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland The last three words were noticable by their absence by me (a Canadian) while attending the London Olympics.  If I was an Ulsterman I would be pissed off about this nomenclature.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back