[Jason Thurman]

I was going to post this in the Architecture forum, but I can't find it so I guess I'll post it here in the Cell Phones and Subliminal Messages forum instead.

I played a phenomenal course over the weekend that must be one of the hardest tests I've seen. My host (a 6'4", 230 lb golf pro who can carry it 330) insisted we play it from the tips, and I'm glad he did. Even though I'm a 10 handicap and only carry it around 250-260 on a good hit these days and had to play my tail off just to break 90, I had a blast.

This course had only two par 4s of under 400 yards, with the median par 4 around 450. If I were a member, I might normally play one tee up but I'd not hesitate to go to the tips either. It's a fun course even if it doesn't have more than a single breather hole (and even that one has disaster lurking).

Here's what I saw:
1. Despite a compact piece of land, the playing corridors are relatively wide. Fairways are challenged by bunkers as much as rough, which is kept pretty manageable. While the fairways themselves aren't super-wide, it's hard to lose a ball unless you find one of the few spots on the course with water.

2. A reliance on angles to create challenge. Tough push-up greens with significant slopes (and running 12.5 with significant firmness) make stopping irons difficult. Getting up and down for par is a challenge, but a smart player can secure bogey easily (if they can avoid 3-putting, which is admittedly easier said than done).

What are some tough courses that you still love to play and find enjoyable, and what characteristics do they share? How often would you be willing to play them?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sounds like Victoria National except our pro isn't that tall, you will lose a ball in the water and a 10 handicap isn't breaking 90 from the tips. Is this a course near Louisville?

[Jim Franklin]

I was going to post this in the Architecture forum, but I can't find it so I guess I'll post it here in the Cell Phones and Subliminal Messages forum instead.

I played a phenomenal course over the weekend that must be one of the hardest tests I've seen. My host (a 6'4", 230 lb golf pro who can carry it 330) insisted we play it from the tips, and I'm glad he did. Even though I'm a 10 handicap and only carry it around 250-260 on a good hit these days and had to play my tail off just to break 90, I had a blast.

This course had only two par 4s of under 400 yards, with the median par 4 around 450. If I were a member, I might normally play one tee up but I'd not hesitate to go to the tips either. It's a fun course even if it doesn't have more than a single breather hole (and even that one has disaster lurking).

Here's what I saw:
1. Despite a compact piece of land, the playing corridors are relatively wide. Fairways are challenged by bunkers as much as rough, which is kept pretty manageable. While the fairways themselves aren't super-wide, it's hard to lose a ball unless you find one of the few spots on the course with water.

2. A reliance on angles to create challenge. Tough push-up greens with significant slopes (and running 12.5 with significant firmness) make stopping irons difficult. Getting up and down for par is a challenge, but a smart player can secure bogey easily (if they can avoid 3-putting, which is admittedly easier said than done).

What are some tough courses that you still love to play and find enjoyable, and what characteristics do they share? How often would you be willing to play them?

What course are you referring to?

I find Oakmont and Pine Valley to be very hard yet a ton of fun to play. Interesting greens help.

[Mac Plumart]

What are some tough courses that you still love to play and find enjoyable, and what characteristics do they share? How often would you be willing to play them?


I really enjoy Kiawah Ocean course.  It has great decisions that need to be made off the tee and seeminlgy on every shot.  I enjoy that thinking aspect of it and the option that are presented that allow you not to "take on" the hazards.  I like playing this course once a year (or making a trip to the course once a year and playing it a few times during that trip) to test my game.

I also enjoyed playing Baltusorl Lower.  I've only played it once, but felt like there were some good ways to attack the course in a non-monotonous way.  It also had some unique holes and features that caught my interest.

[Mark Pritchett]

Musgrove Mill comes to mind as a fun course that is hard to score on. 

I enjoy tougher courses if they are not super long.  A day of constant hybrids and/or long irons into most of the par 4's makes for a long day. 

[Jason Thurman]

The course I referenced in the initial post is Idle Hour, a Ross design in Lexington, KY. Their head pro, Pete Garvey, posts here occassionally.

Mac, I think you're onto something with hazard placement. I found Idle Hour's hazards dared you to make aggressive plays off the tee, but there were routes to avoid them as well. I've played a lot of "tough" courses that don't require a lot of engagement on tee shots - just line up and hit it straight. It's nice to choose how much risk you're willing to take on.

Also, for whatever reason, I find that when I hit shots with a purpose (carry the bunker, bounce off the kickplate and feed toward the pin, etc) instead of just a stock swing to a target, I tend to hit the shot where I want more frequently. I don't always make the carry and the kickplate doesn't always feed like I pictured, but I don't usually miss my target by fifty yards like I do so frequently when I just aim down the middle. A tough course with a lot of purpose-filled shots often leads to a good ballstriking day for me, and that might be part of why I loved Erin Hills and Idle Hour so much.

[Kenny Baer]

I thought Oakland Hills was that way; tough to lose a ball but also very difficult to score on.

[hhuffines]

I find Chechessee Creek very difficult to score well on but I love it and look forward to seeing again in Oct.

[Jason Topp]

The Classic in Brainerd, MN is one of the more difficult courses I have played when the greens are firm and fast and the wind is blowing a bit.  The course has nine forced water carries and we usually play it from 6800 yards which is about my max.  Nonetheless I love playing there.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

Royal County Down is a course that meets your definition, that I love to play.  Muirfield, too.

However, in general, I don't enjoy courses where the par-4's average 450 yards; it's hard to avoid the course being repetitious.  Crystal Downs is probably just as hard to score on as Idle Hour, and it manages to do it with four par-4's under 350 yards.

[Jeff Shelman]

Jason,

I think Idle Hour is really, really good. Lots of cool holes and you have to hit good shots to score well.

When I think of courses that are tough, but not a slog, I think they have a number of holes that are hard pars, but easy bogeys. I think that is very different than courses where there are hard pars, but if you don't make par, you're making double or losing a ball.

[Tom_Doak]

When I think of courses that are tough, but not a slog, I think they have a number of holes that are hard pars, but easy bogeys. I think that is very different than courses where there are hard pars, but if you don't make par, you're making double or losing a ball.

Apparently we have opposite tastes, and opposite definitions of the word "slog".  I think of a slog as long and boring, which for me would be a bunch of holes where the only score you make is 4 or 5.

[Jeff Shelman]

Tom,

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant. When I look at tough, but not a slog, I think of a place such as Skokie. You have to hit the ball well there to score, but it also isn't so penal that if you make a mistake, you lose a ball and make a double or a triple.

Idle Hour, as the OP referenced, is very much like that as well.

What I wouldn't want to play on a daily basis is a course where you knew you were going to make double bogey several times around and lose a bunch of balls.

[David Cronheim]

I've always thought that Bulle Rock in Maryland fell into this category. It's a tough Pete Dye layout that really doesn't have a boring hole on it (perhaps excepting #10). It tests all the clubs in your bag and even from the back is a blast.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The first one that came to mind was Oak Hill..fits the description in every way, unless you lay from the very tips then you need to just superhuman!!

Kiawah, fits the bill
Secession..right in there
Muirfield for cetain, very tough but equally fun

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