Playing over land NOT owned by the Club

[Scott Macpherson]

Just wondering if anyone can come up with examples of where a hole plays over land that is NOT owned by the Club. And to be more precise, the land is in private ownership of another person/group. e.g a Tee shot where you have to hit over the corner of someone else's field (not the ocean, river, beach).

Has this situation ever been positive for both parties, or does it (as one would expect) lead to difficulties?

thanks,

scott

[Jon Wiggett]

Scott,

I am preety sure the tee shot at the 17th on TOC falls into this. Don't know if this has been positive or negative.

Jon

[Howard Riefs]

Scott,

I am preety sure the tee shot at the 17th on TOC falls into this. Don't know if this has been positive or negative.

Jon

At least one negative (if it's true)...

In 1995 a golfer playing the Road Hole, No. 17, sent a ball down a chimney at The Old Course Hotel. The ball bounced on the fire grate, hit the Board Room table, smashing its glass top, and stunned the people in the meeting.

http://www.travelgolf.com/departments/coursereviews/scotland/old-course-notebook.htm

[John McCarthy]

I once almost hit Johnny Cash's garage cutting a corner at Cinnamon Hill (or at least that is who my caddy said owned it).  I don't recall which hole but it was a pretty severe dogleg left going up the hill. 

[Mark McKeever]

Thinking back into distant memory...Doesnt one of the holes at Paxon Hollow dogleg severely left over/around a corner property?

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just wondering if anyone can come up with examples of where a hole plays over land that is NOT owned by the Club. And to be more precise, the land is in private ownership of another person/group. e.g a Tee shot where you have to hit over the corner of someone else's field (not the ocean, river, beach).

Has this situation ever been positive for both parties, or does it (as one would expect) lead to difficulties?


Scott,

There are a number of courses where corners are cut on doglegs where a home and/or property is involved.
The first one that came to mind is Fairmont in NJ.

My limited experience with golf courses and private property that border one another is that the trend is toward favoring the property owner, even if they more recently purchased the property, knowing the pre-existing risks.

It would seem that the prudent course of action is to have counsel research the particular situation, then, see if anyone at the club has a social or business relationship with the party, then approach the property owner with an eye toward trying to ameliorate the situation as favorably as possible.

Good luck.

[Joe Bausch]

Thinking back into distant memory...Doesnt one of the holes at Paxon Hollow dogleg severely left over/around a corner property?

Mark

Yes.  I figure the owner of that house at PH is either a golfer and never buys golf balls and/or sells them!

Note:  I could blame Annika for having her former property at Lake Nona 'in the way' on one hole, but it was just a really crooked drive I hit such that my Titleist ended up in her yard. 

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

I am preety sure the tee shot at the 17th on TOC falls into this. Don't know if this has been positive or negative.

Jon

That was my first thought.  My second was "didn't Scott write a book about TOC?"

[BCrosby]

Scott -

I'm not sure it's responsive to your question, but didn't Hoylake have an "internal" OB area at one time? I don't know if the OB was property owned by a third party. I'm pretty sure there are other instances of internal OB's.

I'd think it is rare that regular play on a hole traverses property not owned or leased by the course. In the US it would raise a multitude of real estate issues, not to mention maintenance and owner liability concerns.

There are thousands of courses, including mine, where misses left, right or long will cross property lines. Bit I assume that is not what you are talking about.

Why do you ask?

Bob

 

[Mark Pearce]

The 1st at Machrihanish and the 12th at Elie (from the medal tees) play over beaches.  I don't believe either club owns the beach.  Actually, the same applies to 2 at NBWL and 4 and 5 at Crail Balcomie.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would imagine a court would rule that if the landowner did not want a ball deliberately played over his land then the club would be forced to move the hole. Thus if the hotel owner at TOC 17 decided that, the club would have to shorten 17, I would imagine Mr Kohler has no problem getting a tee time for himself or his friends.

There must be lots of cases where its done amicably and cases where it does cause a problem. In the UK plenty of roads are played over which may not be in the clubs ownership, and probably a few where you might play over a corner of a field.

[Frank Pont]

Tee shot first hole Cypress Point is over a public road isn't it....

[Jim_Coleman]

    Philly Cricket doesn't own the railroad right of way cutting through it's property.  That's why it's out of bounds to the right of #9 even though the 3rd hole is bordering #9 on the right (on the other side of the tracks).

[BCrosby]

Does Pebble own the beach and cliffs you play over on the 8th?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Scott... Dealing with this possibility right now although it will only be over the corner of another landowner's field a long way removed from possible development or even human interaction... Don't think it will be a problem but it hasn't played out yet...

[Jim Sherma]

Number 13 at Dingle Links in Ireland plays over a farmer's field. I assume that the club does not own the farm. One of the times I played it there was a cow standing right on the line I was trying to hit over. I would have felt awful if I had beaned the poor thing.

[Joe Bausch]

Number 13 at Dingle Links in Ireland plays over a farmer's field. I assume that the club does not own the farm. One of the times I played it there was a cow standing right on the line I was trying to hit over. I would have felt awful if I had beaned the poor thing.

Friend of mine years ago sliced a drive badly OB and hit a cow at Kimberton.  Teed up a second and hit the same cow again.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Ally,

Your situation sounds like the one I am thinking about. There is no housing involved, no roads or right-of-ways, just a farmers field. I am thinking about extend the tees back, but this would mean golfers play across the (potato) field (at the moment). There doesn't seem to be an opportunity to buy the field, so I wonder if you could play over it (except on days when the field is being harvested, seeded, sprayed etc), It's a new situation for me, so just thinking through it. I wonder what risks it poses to both the Owner of the field and golf course?

Hi Mark, yes, I should have declared that I was not thinking about the Road hole.


scott

[JMEvensky]

Number 13 at Dingle Links in Ireland plays over a farmer's field. I assume that the club does not own the farm. One of the times I played it there was a cow standing right on the line I was trying to hit over. I would have felt awful if I had beaned the poor thing.

Friend of mine years ago sliced a drive badly OB and hit a cow at Kimberton.  Teed up a second and hit the same cow again.

Disproving Einstein's definition of insanity?

[Joe Bausch]

Number 13 at Dingle Links in Ireland plays over a farmer's field. I assume that the club does not own the farm. One of the times I played it there was a cow standing right on the line I was trying to hit over. I would have felt awful if I had beaned the poor thing.

Friend of mine years ago sliced a drive badly OB and hit a cow at Kimberton.  Teed up a second and hit the same cow again.

Disproving Einstein's definition of insanity?

For my buddy hitting again or the cow not moving after being beaned the first time?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

HIRE an attorney, as you'll need one sooner or later, if you proceed.

[Tim Johnson]

18th Hole at Rosapenna Old Course, last time I played it, your approach was over the road that serves the town. You had to wait until it was clear.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott,

HIRE an attorney, as you'll need one sooner or later, if you proceed.

Yes I think you should at least talk to the landowner and explain your situation, he may be nice and see no problem, I doubt he will sign anything without $$$$$, ofcourse if you start involving lawyers they will busy themselves into a $10,000 paper trail. At least in building an extended tee you are not investing lots of money, so even if its okay now and not later you can just abandon this tee. I'd try and do it on a handshake.

[Brian_Ewen]

Just wondering if anyone can come up with examples of where a hole plays over land that is NOT owned by the Club. And to be more precise, the land is in private ownership of another person/group. e.g a Tee shot where you have to hit over the corner of someone else's field (not the ocean, river, beach).

Has this situation ever been positive for both parties, or does it (as one would expect) lead to difficulties?

thanks,

scott

The one I remember, is the original 18th hole at Letham Grange ..... and that got changed pretty quickly.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Tim and Patrick,

Hiring lawyers is the inevitable situation with all these cases. Fortunately in this case, the heroic carry is not absolutely necessary for the routing to work, but it would make for a neat back tee. I just found myself trying to think of other places where this situation was occurring, and found very few examples.

So thanks for any help.

scott