Bethpage Black & Red

[Ronald Montesano]

I believe I had heard it mentioned that the 11th and 12th at the Black might have been removed, and the 1st and 18th of the Red put into play as the 17th and 18th of the "Open" course. This would be nice to see attempted at one of the Barclays' events over the next few years.

CORRECTION-SteveO is right...too much weed for me today. 10th and 11th removed.

[SteveOgulukian]

Do you mean the 10th and 11th removed?  That would make more sense.

Where did you hear this?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm certain that I heard various sources in the biz mention this, especially after the dissatisfaction of the public and some folks with the milquetoast 18th that the course currently has.

[Michael Ryan]

I agree that 18th is a poor finishing hole, and that the proposed holes being cut would mean an convenient walk from the 9th green to the 12th tee, but taking away 10 and 11?  Two really strong par 4's?  I say leave it as is with 18 being grouped with 1 and 2 as so-so holes on an otherwise world class collection of golf holes.

[Joe Bausch]

Now it is fun to propose again they simply push the 18th green further up the hill.  Easily 40 yards available.

And with someone no longer participating on this site, you won't get to see his reply again telling me why this is a stupid and undoable idea.  

[JMEvensky]

Now it is fun to propose again they simply push the 18th green further up the hill.  Easily 40 yards available.

And with someone no longer participating on this site, you won't get to see his reply again telling me why this is stupid and undoable idea.   

 I think PY looks in occasionally.

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks, Michael. I needed someone to say that 10 and 11 are very strong par fours. You are correct. You would be replacing them with two more dramatic holes. 1 Red instantly drops off the escarpment, then rises just as dramatically to a table-top green. Easily as good a hole as #10, with the proper TLC. 18 Red, well, you can see it in the "Best Finishing Hole" thread. It is as good as #11.

What would happen is, you would have an equal trade of par fours; what you would gain is a new #16 (old 18th) that could be played as a drivable par four 1 or 2 days. That's not possible with any other holes on the course. And your finish would be improved immensely. The 17th, an average par 4, would no longer have to occupy the spot of "penultimate hole in a great event."

[Kevin Lynch]

If you needed to drop a two-hole stretch without sacrificing 10/11, you could lose both 1 & 18 and give golfers a cart-ride to #2 tee to start their day. 

If any of this is true, I would like to see them do this just for the Barclays (and who knows if they'll ever get another Open there after the last 2 washouts).  That would resolve the problem of people wanting to play the "Open Course" every day - they still would be playing what was used in 2002/2009.

I'm looking forward to the Barclays and seeing how the course plays with a little "gentler" set-up (little more width, little shorter rough).

[Ronald Montesano]

How would you get them from 17 green Black  to 1 tee Red?

[Michael Ryan]

Ron,

Happy I could assist in your strategic plan.

I respectfully disagree with you, however I haven't played the Red enough to argue the nuances of each.  1 Red does have a dramatic rise, but I don't think it's better than 10 on the Black.  I get that you want 1 and 18 Red involved, but I think you are cutting the wrong holes.

[Joe Bausch]

My inbox is already starting to fill up with responses to my idea to move the green back many yards!  No way you can guess the author of this response.  

I do think it is quite thoughtful, however.

BB's closing hole is quite lame -- the issue is not lengthening the hole but providing a counterpoint to all the muscle holes that precede it.
 
I've played the black in excess of 200 times -- few have played it more among those posting / lurking on GCA.
 
The final hole should be a superb short par-4 that can be driven in certain instances. What Rees did was lengthen an already boring hole -- then reshape the drive zone and shrink the green a bit in size. It is truly lame and frankly the Black is in need of a first rate short par-4. The course has enough muscle holes and I agree with Doak -- to be a world class cours you need at least one stellar short par-4 -- an invitation the folks running Bethpage need to think about in the years to come.

[Ronald Montesano]

Perhaps we should go back to what I suggested about incorporating the 1st & 18th from the Red.
Having those two holes replace 10 and 11 would be an even swap of long par fours.
I think that 17 should play as 15 and should be a short par three, not the beast it is.
Later, you have the new 16th (old 18th) also as a shortie, before the final countdown.
You have the opportunity for two late birdies, then hang on for dear life...
Or, you keep it the way it is and destroy some other hole that really wouldn't be a good short par four.
Unless the new brain trust thinks differently, the Black will fossilize where it is, great but not as great as it could be.
Never forget that David Fay took a huge risk in bringing the Black back to its former glory; it would be a shame to end the journey early.
Good luck to all those involved.

[SteveOgulukian]

Ignoring the Red course for a minute, I would like to see a good short par 4 on this course.  I think either holes 10 or 11 would make good candidates.  Although they are already good holes as longer par 4's, they both play along side one another on the flatest section of the course.  Since there are so many good and demanding par 4s on the Black already, it would be nice to see one of these holes transformed.

I don't like the idea of making the 18th driveable.  The green can only receive aerial shots it wouldnt play well as a short(er) par 4 IMO.

I see why people complain about the 18th when the pros are there but I think it's a good hole as it is for the 99.9999% of the rounds that are played there by non professionals.

[David Cronheim]

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm the only one, but I just really do not think the Black lives up to the hype. It's wildly overrated because it's open to the public. Put a fence around it and maybe it's in the top 100, but certainly down another 50+ spots. It's a perfect example of what's wrong with the game today after the USGA let the equipment get away from it. It's an absolute slog - bomb it off the tee and hit it straight to avoid deep bunkers or rough. The greens (with the notable exception of #15) are incredibly flat and boring.

Anyone can make a 7,500 yard golf course hard. There's not a lot of skill in that. Show me someone who can make a 6800 yard course hard, but still play fair (e.g. Harbour Town). That takes skill. I'm not a fan of stealing holes from another course either to make up for the weaknesses of one course. I didn't like it at Congressional and I don't like it at Bethpage.

[SteveOgulukian]

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm the only one, but I just really do not think the Black lives up to the hype. It's wildly overrated because it's open to the public. Put a fence around it and maybe it's in the top 100, but certainly down another 50+ spots. It's a perfect example of what's wrong with the game today after the USGA let the equipment get away from it. It's an absolute slog - bomb it off the tee and hit it straight to avoid deep bunkers or rough. The greens (with the notable exception of #15) are incredibly flat and boring.

Anyone can make a 7,500 yard golf course hard. There's not a lot of skill in that. Show me someone who can make a 6800 yard course hard, but still play fair (e.g. Harbour Town). That takes skill. I'm not a fan of stealing holes from another course either to make up for the weaknesses of one course. I didn't like it at Congressional and I don't like it at Bethpage.

Interesting point you make.  Usually it's the other way around when courses are overrated because there is a fence around it and it's exclusive.

[Ronald Montesano]

David...disagree...I played it from the 6800 yard tees and found everything in evidence that you claim is absent.

[David Cronheim]

David...disagree...I played it from the 6800 yard tees and found everything in evidence that you claim is absent.

Ron, agree to disagree, but there's no way anyone could describe Bethpage's greens as anything but flat (again noting the exception of #15).

[SteveOgulukian]

David...disagree...I played it from the 6800 yard tees and found everything in evidence that you claim is absent.

Ron, agree to disagree, but there's no way anyone could describe Bethpage's greens as anything but flat (again noting the exception of #15).

Are greens 1,8,11,12,13,17 flat?

I'm not saying BB has the most interesitng greens, but let's be realistic here.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

There's a lot of little movement to BB's greens. 

6 is, I believe, the shortest par 4 on Black.  I wonder how it would play if the tees were moved up, say, to the 330-350 range? 

2 Black I believe curves a little too much to be effective as a driveable risk/reward short 4.  At least, with 6, there are good bunkers and fescues for those that miss the drive. 

I also believe 14 was better in 2002 than 2009.  I saw the green when expanded, and did not like it.  As of now, 3 and 17 play at about the same yardage, and both are flat to slightly uphill.  8 is downhill, and 14 is slightly downhill (not sure of any tees built back in the corner right of 13 which would make it uphill).  I like to see different looks/different clubs being tested on the par 3s.  As it is now, 3 and 17 basically play at about 210-225. 

My only concern, logistically, is the natural amphitheater behind 18 Red (which is wonderful, and my absolute favorite closer anywhere) does have some large trees, and may be a little tight when you consider grandstands and 45,000 spectators.  Maybe there's a way to get it done. 

[David Cronheim]

David...disagree...I played it from the 6800 yard tees and found everything in evidence that you claim is absent.

Ron, agree to disagree, but there's no way anyone could describe Bethpage's greens as anything but flat (again noting the exception of #15).

Are greens 1,8,11,12,13,17 flat?

I'm not saying BB has the most interesitng greens, but let's be realistic here.

They're the dullest and easiest set of greens for any course to host the US Open in recent memory (though Torrey's greens aren't much to write home about either). Golf shouldn't only be about banging the ball forever and chasing it. My problem with Bethpage is that so little of the overall challenge of the course is in the greens. I'm not saying it has to be 50-50, but at Bethpage it's 95/5.

[Keith OHalloran]

David,
I do not really agree with all your points, but I do agree that I would not want to take holes from another course to make up a tournament course. I find it somewhat ironic that many posts on this site lambaste the USGA for taking over courses for tournaments and changing them. We have had myriad discussion on the changes at Merion etc. Yet when Bethpage is discussed, people are talking about shortening holes, cutting holes out of the course, re routing, going to a different course to finish. I guess since a governing body is not recommending it, these ideas are fine. My feeling is that a course is either good enough for your tournament or not. I personally like the finish on 18. To me, the easier hole is a nice way for Bethpage to entice you to come back after killing you for 6 hours and 17 holes. It is sort of like flushing a shot on 18 after kicking it around all day.

[Joe Bausch]

From a lurker:

Let David C know that if Bethpage Black had the greens of Winged Foot / West the pros -- and everyone else for that matter -- would still be playing the course. It's the terrain -- the elevated targets -- the need to have a solid tee-to-green game that is tested. Too many people on GCA favor formulaic golf of extreme wide fairways and mega contoured greens. The Black's success is that the Manetto Hills where the course is located -- is anything but easy to handle.
 
The glaring weakness ?
 
The final hole -- makes the 18th at Cypress Point look utterly strategic to the max. BB's main chink is that it has no really solid short par-4 holes -- it's like facing Nolan Ryan and seeing one 100 mph fastball after another. I respect what the Black provides but it needs something at the end which it doesn't have now.

[Ronald Montesano]

Glad that the lurker contributed...a few hours ago, I planned to write that BPB doesn't need Travis-tough greens because of everything else it throws at you. Travis courses are famous for their brevity; hence, the need for the amped green surfaces.

[David Cronheim]

From a lurker:

Let David C know that if Bethpage Black had the greens of Winged Foot / West the pros -- and everyone else for that matter -- would still be playing the course.

That's exactly my point though, Joe/lurker. I strongly disapprove of a layout which emphasizes the long game over putting to such a strong degree. I'm not calling for mega-ridiculous greens. I would be equally critical of a course that overemphasized putting over tee to green play. Don't misunderstand me - I was NOT calling for the USGA or anyone else to make the greens at Bethpage any harder. I simply find it to be a glaring weakness that the difficulty is so much stacked in the long game rather than the short game. You'd think I'd slaughtered a sacred cow. It's a nice course, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying it is incredibly overhyped because it presents mainly one type of challenge.

[Joe Bausch]

From a lurker:

Let David C know that if Bethpage Black had the greens of Winged Foot / West the pros -- and everyone else for that matter -- would still be playing the course.

That's exactly my point though, Joe/lurker. I strongly disapprove of a layout which emphasizes the long game over putting to such a strong degree. I'm not calling for mega-ridiculous greens. I would be equally critical of a course that overemphasized putting over tee to green play. Don't misunderstand me - I was NOT calling for the USGA or anyone else to make the greens at Bethpage any harder. I simply find it to be a glaring weakness that the difficulty is so much stacked in the long game rather than the short game. You'd think I'd slaughtered a sacred cow. It's a nice course, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying it is incredibly overhyped because it presents mainly one type of challenge.

The lurker responds:

Dear David:
 
You "strongly disapprove of a layout which emphasizes the long game over putting to such a strong degree"-- maybe it's because your long game is especially weak and exposes a glaring deficiency. Bunters usually bitch and moan. Instead of admitting the obvious  (no disrespect) - they camouflage the issue as the fault of the course. Clever tap dance trick.
 
Plenty of GCAers gush about the short courses and like Doak have this infatuation with green contours. Stick these same people on a layout
where marrying consistent length (for the sake of argument consistently above 250 yards at minimum from mid tees and 275+ if played from the tips) with solid accuracy a must too and these same folks then do the slow predictable howls and whines about such courses lacking anything that merits serious attention.
 
People don't love the likes of a WF / West and BB because they don't hug and kiss those with pop-gun tee shots. That's why people love Bethpage Red and
Tillie's other Westchester gem Fenway. Less rigors off the tee allows them to then hit reasonable approaches. No different than people who line up at the batting cages -- give them 50-60 mph speed pitches and they feel like Barry Bonds swinging the bat -- throw them in the 80+ level and all of a sudden the only thing they're swinging at is dead air.
 
Tillie did everyone a favor -- or should I credit Burbeck -- for greens at the Black that aren't overly severe. You put greens found at WF/West, or Oakland Hills
South or Oakmont on BB -- and the pros and anyone else for that matter would be sucking big time wind. Let me point out that there are a number of holes a BB that have solid greens -- the 1st is vastly underrated -- the 4th is quite subtle, the 8th is very good -- the 11th and 12th, you mentioned the 15th, the 17th -- likely I can add a few others as well.
 
The issue is understanding that Tillie created a course where getting to the green is no small feat -- plenty of elevated targets to handle -- most notably the dangerous par-4 15th !  A number of GCAers and others are in love with layouts they can physically handle -- and have greens with wonderful contours where the short game is in fact over-EMPHASIZED (my emphasis added).
 
David, love the subtle putdown -- BB is more than just a "nice course" -- to use a baseball metaphor -- it's Nolan Ryan throwing serious heat and if you can't handle the fastball it's likely because you don't favor courses that don't fit your game -- your scorecard. No problem -- plenty of people mask their own game shortcomings and say similar things. There are johnny-one-note long hitters who hate massive contours because the putt like Roberto Duran -- the hand of stone! One other thing - be curious to know how many times you've played the course and what tees you played?
 
I'll say this again -- I do agree with you that finesse is missing at Bethpage Black and the omission of a top shelf short par-4 -- possibly even more than one -- is a must item. I have always said so and I agree 100% with Doak when he says there is not one world class golf course that doesn't have at least one short par-4 of note. The 18th at BB is a dog meat ender. Rees Jones tried to keep the original format and used a variety of "dress me up" elements to sweeten the pot. It failed in my mind. The 18th at BB needs to be THAT short par-4 where so much rides and even more so for the fact that there have been a number of muscle holes to precede it.