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Ted Sturges

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More questions about The Ocean Course
« on: August 09, 2012, 03:18:35 PM »
I had another thread where I asked what courses most resembled the ocean course (because I couldn't think of any that resembled it).  After reading the Jay Flemma interview with Pete, he says he had Portmarnock in mind when he was building it.  I haven't been there, so I can't speak to that.  He also says he had Carne in mind as well.  For those who have been to those two courses, could you offer some comments as to the similarities of those courses to the Ocean Course?

My other question (after watching about an hour of the telecast today and taking in the attractive features of The Ocean Course) is...why didn't Pete get more sites like this?  Seems to me he did an amazing job.  Tom Doak did an amazing job at Pacific Dunes and several other seaside properties came knocking at his door.  Why didn't this happen to Pete?  Would love to hear T. Liddy's comments on this.

TS

Ronald Montesano

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 03:36:02 PM »
The permitting for this type of property is not easy to get past the local boards. Take the Outer Banks of N.C., for example. Lots of great dunesland, but good luck convincing the powers that are to let you build.

Tom Doak is a singular case, I believe. He was working with an owner/developer who knew and liked his work, yet he still had OldMac (e-i-e-i-o) designed by a shrewdness of architects and architectural writers/researchers. I suspect that once this company (not a single guy like Mr. Mike Keiser) was not in the biz for golf's sake, but for profit's sake.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

RJ_Daley

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »
Ted, maybe Pete doesn't like the idea of so much travel to foreign sites, w/exception of "Teeth of the Dog" in Dominican. 

Maybe Pete doesn't like to be where TV doesn't have re-runs of Hogan's Heros.  (that isn't a disparagment, just an inside joke with one of Pete's crew members I met when they were building the Irish Course at Whistling Straits)  ;D
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Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 04:39:57 PM »
Is Kiawah the best site Dye has had to work with? Or Casa de Campo?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 04:53:31 PM »
Maybe Tom Doak can give us an idea, if he knows or has a sense of it, how many great sites Pete turned down or referred someone else for whatever reasons he had at that time.  I'll bet those turn downs are numerous. 
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Matt Kardash

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 05:34:46 PM »
Kiawah isn't a bad site by any means because it is on sand and by the ocean, but Dye didn't have a whole lot to work with. It is a completely manifactured course from a dea flat site. Dye even created the dunescape! I'd say he has had more to work with on other sites. But I'd agree that he hasn't had many great sites to work with. In the last 10 years Doak has probably worked 5 or 6 sites that are better than Dye ever had!
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 05:36:34 PM »
Depends what you mean by best site.  The location of TOC is certainly ideal, but the land itself presented a few hurdles.

I think Pete Dye carved out a niche for creating masterpiece's out of locations that would not immediately strike someone as being ideal for golf.  His is not the found course.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

RJ_Daley

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »
Pete as the master of dead flat sights, now there is a concept worth pondering.  Pete as the guy with the most grand construction vision, and daring to take on anything with a limitless budget that he can easily exceed (as Mr. Kohler once said).

Teeth of the Dog was not a particularly well contoured site, was it?  Maybe Pete can't visualize a routing in and amongst all the hillocks and dunes?  Maybe that is why he turned down Sand Hills.  Maybe Pete would rather dig and carve and shape. 

Maybe this is a legitimate mindset that varies among archies basic nature.  Years ago when I was looking at some sites with Art Johnson, he was specific and adement that he preferred dead flat sites with some decent sandy loam to shape.  He'd rather create with cut and fill, use pond spoils, etc. 

Fazio had that at Shadow Creek.  Art and I sat together when Faz and Wynn did their dog and pony presentation of building of Shadow Creek, and Art lamented how lucky Faz was with such a budget and flat unremarkable site.

Doak had that at Rawls course.  What brings out the best creativity, dead flat sandy, or hillocks dunes and hollows?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 06:00:57 PM »
Re second q, not to sound dense but maybe bc his clients didn't have that kind of land. He tends to do a lot of repeat work for clients, doesn't he? Maybe Landmark, Kohler and Casa de Campo had him locked up (ie kept him busy) during this time.

Or maybe the Dyes didn't want to travel to the ends of the earth. After all, it took him forever just to get auto insurance domestically without owning a car.

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 06:12:03 PM »
I agree the site is not as good as the golf course looks.
My understanding is a lot of dirt was moved, and swamp drained.
They also had the issue with the middle of the site being ruled off limits due to environmental regulations.  So the two nines are divided by the clubhouse and a huge driving range.  The driving range sits on prime ocean front property.  This also makes the walk very difficult.
While the course looks like Scotland, the native grass and temperatures do not allow the surface to play like a links.
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 06:18:46 PM »
Good NY Times article about how Hurricane Hugo impacted the re-design of the course:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/sports/golf/pga-championship-ocean-golf-course-shaped-by-hurricane-hugo.html?_r=1&ref=golf

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 07:36:33 PM »
That article is stunning in its revelation. Hats off to Pauly and Ally.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 08:15:27 PM »

Teeth of the Dog was not a particularly well contoured site, was it?  Maybe Pete can't visualize a routing in and amongst all the hillocks and dunes?  Maybe that is why he turned down Sand Hills.  Maybe Pete would rather dig and carve and shape.  

 

RJ,

I read an online article recently (I wish I could remember the publication) where the author had interviewed Mr. Dye. Very early in the interview, Pete was asked about designing courses. Dye cut the interviewer off and (I'm paraphrasing) said something to the effect of, "I've never designed a golf course, but I've built many..." Do you think this personally preferred descriptor or label, "builder of courses", explains his attitudes towards the profession or at least the way he approaches the profession?

Tim Liddy

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Re: More questions about The Ocean Course
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 01:43:43 PM »
Ted,

I have no idea why Mr. Dye has not gotten better sites throughout his career.

Matthew,

There are two types of golf course architects: "Dirt" architects or builders (Mr. Dye) and "Landscape Architect" golf course designers that are more drawing based. Mr. Dye is emphasizing that he "builds his golf courses" which most feel provide more detail and interest than architects  that rely more on drawings. It also implies the golf course architect is on site 100% of the time during construction, which normally provides better results.

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