[jeffwarne]

Patrick

I'm with you, you're very tackfully saying that Donald was lying when he said he wouldn't develop further unless the wind turbine project was scrapped. Yes, it is a game of bluff and a not unknown business tactic, however you only get away with it once hence Wee Eck calling him out on the wind turbine issue.

Niall,



I don't look at it as lying, I look at it as trying to mislead the opposition.
Business negotiations are inherently filled with opposing sides misrepresenting or concealing their ultimate position.
Just look at the disgrace going on in Washington these days where all sides and all parties are bluffing, lying, misrepresenting and concealing their ultimate positions.


Why single Trump out, if not for his persona ?

That's his style.

To those not familiar with it, I can see how you'd be horrified

Patrick,
I fail to see how you continue to constantly and immediately defend the man.
Misrepresenting his position (actually that IS lying), pointing out the "disgrace in Washington", and stating that it's less horrifying if "you're familiar with it".....
 are the best you can come up with?
Your arguments grow thinnner.
What's next? Other people have committed worse atrocities  so he's ok by comparison?
Did you read the recent article yesterday with the choice multiple quotes/tweets from Trump describing his uncoopertive neighbor?
Was he mistweeted?

There are plenty of people successfully conducting business  ethically, morally, and considerately of those also occupying the same or nearby space.
and no doubt they occasionally don't extract the last drop of blood out of a negotiation,........ yet somehow they soldier on.

It's such a black eye on golf, in the home of golf, in a sport that doesn't really need any more black eyes.
and yes, I really will be OK if I never play Trump Scotland.

[Jon Wiggett]

I am beginning to wonder how the Trump Organisation ever has any success. They hit out at one of the most iconic firms in Scotland whilst not realising that it was the Scottish Public that voted for the winner.

Jon

[Brian_Ewen]

I am beginning to wonder how the Trump Organisation ever has any success. They hit out at one of the most iconic firms in Scotland whilst not realising that it was the Scottish Public that voted for the winner.

Jon

The ignorance is astonishing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am beginning to wonder how the Trump Organisation ever has any success.

Jon, how can you "wonder", they have a long established track record for successful projects.
It's certainly not luck, it's the result of an entepreneurial, dynamic, intelligent businessman who tends to be very polarizing in the public's eye, but, that's not where he operates.

I never, and I mean never ever thought he'd get the permitting for his course in Bedminster.
Others familiar with that area, and the politics in that area, thought likewise.
But, to my/our amazement, the guy did it.
He does it time and time again.

So, when a guy has repeated successes, how can you wonder ?
He must be doing something right, over and over and over again.

They hit out at one of the most iconic firms in Scotland whilst not realising that it was the Scottish Public that voted for the winner.
He has his opinion of his image and what's important to him.
Success for him is not winning a popularity contest, it's developing a successful product, which apparently, he's well on his way to doing.

You have to learn to dismiss your personal feelings toward him and analyze the specific project absent his presence/image/bravado.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I fail to see how you continue to constantly and immediately defend the man.

Jeff, I'm not defending the man so much as I'm defending the project.
All of you experts said that he wouldn't proceed with the next phase, the one concerning the building of a hotel.
Well, you were all wrong.

Misrepresenting his position (actually that IS lying),

Not when you're negotiating with adversaries in business.
Take unions when they threaten striking when they have no intention of doing so.
Ditto for businesses and lockouts.
If someone in a negotiation says, well, if you don't do this, I'll do that, that doesn't make them a liar if they never meant it.
It's just a negotiating ploy.
How many women have said, if you don't marry me, I"m breaking up with you, or I'll start dating, when they never meant it, they were just trying to get the man to commit to a more serious relationship or marriage.

The demonizing of Trump because he uses the bluff as a business tactic is absurd.

It's all theatre and that you don't see that surprises me.

pointing out the "disgrace in Washington", and stating that it's less horrifying if "you're familiar with it".....

What Trump does or what Trump has created is a choice, you can either visit and use his facility or elect not to.

With respect to Washington, they were elected to perform their constitutional duties, things like create budgets, and not bankrupt the country, they are elected officials with fiduciary responsibilities to their constituents.  Trump is under no such obligation

are the best you can come up with?
Your arguments grow thinnner.

Only because they're over your head and you don't like Trump

What's next? Other people have committed worse atrocities  so he's ok by comparison?

So, you, who are without sin, are casting the first stone ?

Please, spare me the indignation.

If the project is successful, and I hope it is, for residents and visitors alike, almost everyone benefits.
With respect to his dealings with some locals, I don't know enough about ALL of the details to draw a firm conclusion, but, I do know that very few projects come to fruition without someone being rubbed the wrong way.  I tend to look at the project's net benefit in a global sense. 

As to bluffing, I'll guarantee that you and almost everybody else on this site has used the same tactic in their lives.


Did you read the recent article yesterday with the choice multiple quotes/tweets from Trump describing his uncoopertive neighbor?
Was he mistweeted?

No, I didn't, but, I also learned, a long while ago, not to believe everything I read.

There are plenty of people successfully conducting business  ethically, morally, and considerately of those also occupying the same or nearby space.
and no doubt they occasionally don't extract the last drop of blood out of a negotiation,........ yet somehow they soldier on.

Doesn't that depend upon the opposition they meet ?

It's such a black eye on golf, in the home of golf, in a sport that doesn't really need any more black eyes.
and yes, I really will be OK if I never play Trump Scotland.

Jeff, Trump DOESN'T care if you ever play his course in Scotland.
If it's as good as people say, if he's built a terrific course, they will come.

But, I'll ask my question another way.
Do you want to see the project fail ?
Do you want to see people put out of work ?
Would that make you happy ?

[Brian_Ewen]

The ignorance is astonishing.

The childishness of the man is equally astonishing.

[Jack_Marr]

Just from the photos, I think his golf course looks excellent. I'd love to play it. How much did it cost to build?

I think some of the golf courses in the west of Ireland and probably in Scotland are a great antidote to these kinds of developments. Would it be true that you have to think a bit more about design when you don't have the money to move mountains?

[Jon Wiggett]

Just from the photos, I think his golf course looks excellent. I'd love to play it. How much did it cost to build?

I think some of the golf courses in the west of Ireland and probably in Scotland are a great antidote to these kinds of developments. Would it be true that you have to think a bit more about design when you don't have the money to move mountains?

Jack,

some good questions. I think that you have to think more about the routing if you have a limited budget. As for the design of the holes, with an unlimited budget you can create all features of a hole if you want to where as with a small budget it is much more about getting as much out of the land as you can so you can argue it both ways as to which is more work.

As for the Trump course having seen it (but not played it) I was a little underwhelmed. It looks to be a very solid course but the holes themselves did not have the wow factor for me. I felt they were poorly tied into the surrounds and seemed to lack choices of the tee. I also think that some of the tees will be unplayable in a stiff wind.

I would put it as been a good course but there are several better and cheaper alternatives nearby. It will rely on overseas (probably American GF players) if it keeps it proposed GF structure.


Brian,

interesting how playgroundesk such people can be. Guess that is one more reason not to waste time on twitter .

Jon

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
I do not wish for Trump Scotland to fail,although having seem it all play out I sure wish another developer would've been involved.
Trump's conduct is an embarrassment to the US and golf.
I'm confident you can see that.
You are right that most of what is written is driivel, but these tweets were from Trump so he's producing the drivel.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I do not wish for Trump Scotland to fail,although having seem it all play out I sure wish another developer would've been involved.
Jeff,

I honestly believe that another developer never would have gotten this project off the ground and through the permitting obstacles.


Trump's conduct is an embarrassment to the US and golf.
I'm confident you can see that.

I haven't condoned his behavior, only his results on this project


You are right that most of what is written is driivel, but these tweets were from Trump so he's producing the drivel.

I understand your angst and disapproval concerning his conduct.
I also understand egos and childlike behavior.
He's a public figure and has adopted and promoted a persona that rubs a lot of people the wrong way.
But, bottom line, he appears to have developed a terrific golf course/project.
And for that, the world of golf should be the better for it.
Time will tell

Stay well, but don't stay bitter, it's not healthy.

[Paul Gray]

Patrick, you said:

"......And for that, the world of golf should be the better for it."

Is the world of golf really better when our selfish wishes ride roughshod over local communities? Would you really see it that way if you lived right next to the course and you were routinely the victim of Trump's actions?

I appreciate this topic has already been round and round but the default position of many on this site frequently seems to be one of apathy where the bigger picture is concerned. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, you said:

"......And for that, the world of golf should be the better for it."

Is the world of golf really better when our selfish wishes ride roughshod over local communities? Would you really see it that way if you lived right next to the course and you were routinely the victim of Trump's actions?

Paul,

How familiar you are with "Eminent Domain", and "The Acquisition of Right of Way" ?

Does the name P. J. Clarke mean anything to you ?

It seems to me, admittedly not knowing ALL the facts, that the community was behind the project.

Are you of the position that if just one individual is disenfranchised that a project should be terminated, irrespective of it's benefit ?

I appreciate this topic has already been round and round but the default position of many on this site frequently seems to be one of apathy where the bigger picture is concerned.  

It seemed to me that this topic/project drew passionate responses, hardly a sign of apathy

[Paul Gray]

I'm intrigued.

I'm familiar with compulsory purchase orders and the ability of Mr Trump's little band of storm troopers to obtain them by waving cash at incompetent politicians.

I'm not of the position that one person being disenfranchised should result in the cancellation of a project, although Trump clearly is, given that he feels that if he has to look at wind turbines an entire renewable energy policy should be scrapped. If we're to prioritise the wishes of disenfranchised minorities I'll sleep more easily knowing I've put more value on the wishes of local residents to receive running water, gas and electricity than Trump's apparent inability to ignore a few windmills.

Finally, I said apathy was the position of many on this side,  but not all. Furthermore, whilst many in the pro Trump camp have commented, many have remained apathetic to the bigger picture, i.e. ignoring the wider world and commenting solely on the merits of the course and how they look forward to playing it.

As a footnote, I was pleased to note that the 'editor at large' in this months' Golf Monthly, not a man renowned for his revolutionary bolshevism, has at least decided to join the 'just say no' movement.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick, you said:

"......And for that, the world of golf should be the better for it."

Is the world of golf really better when our selfish wishes ride roughshod over local communities? Would you really see it that way if you lived right next to the course and you were routinely the victim of Trump's actions?

Paul,

How familiar you are with "Eminent Domain", and "The Acquisition of Right of Way" ?

Does the name P. J. Clarke mean anything to you ?

It seems to me, admittedly not knowing ALL the facts, that the community was behind the project.

Are you of the position that if just one individual is disenfranchised that a project should be terminated, irrespective of it's benefit ?

I appreciate this topic has already been round and round but the default position of many on this site frequently seems to be one of apathy where the bigger picture is concerned.  

It seemed to me that this topic/project drew passionate responses, hardly a sign of apathy

Patrick,

the vast majority of the residence in immediate proximity to this project were very much against the project and if there were to be a pole of the Scottish population I recon far more would be against than for it as shown by the recipient of a recent award. As for "The Acquisition of Right of Way" there is a right to roam law here in Scotland and that includes over golf courses, private or not.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

the vast majority of the residence in immediate proximity to this project were very much against the project

Jon,

That's an enormous "qualifier"
How many residents are "in immediate proximity" ?    5 ?  10 ?  20 ?
Of those "in immediate proximity" how many were in favor and how many opposed ?

and if there were to be a pole of the Scottish population I recon far more would be against than for it
How would you know the results of a poll BEFORE it's taken ?   Unless you're predisposed to the results.


as shown by the recipient of a recent award.

That's just one voice

As for "The Acquisition of Right of Way" there is a right to roam law here in Scotland and that includes over golf courses, private or not.

That's irrelevant.  Paul asked a question and I responded to it by citing "eminent domain" and "AROW" as examples where similar situations and results occur.

With respect to AROW, it's Eminent Domain that's the mechanism or vehicle for that process

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

the vast majority of the residence in immediate proximity to this project were very much against the project

Jon,

That's an enormous "qualifier"
How many residents are "in immediate proximity" ?    5 ?  10 ?  20 ?
Of those "in immediate proximity" how many were in favor and how many opposed ?


Patrick,

I reckon its about 25 people bordering the project. I know they are against it and have yet to hear anyone say it is a good thing

Also you state "It seems to me, admittedly not knowing ALL the facts, that the community was behind the project". How do you know this?


and if there were to be a pole of the Scottish population I recon far more would be against than for it
How would you know the results of a poll BEFORE it's taken ?   Unless you're predisposed to the results.


as shown by the recipient of a recent award.

That's just one voice

You surprise and disappoint me Patrick You appear to be as poorly informed as Mr. Trump. The prise was not awarded by 'one voice' but was voted on by the public here in Scotland. So if the most well known opponent of the Trump project is voted as been the 'top Scot' by the SCOTTISH PUBLIC I would suppose the SCOTTISH PUBLIC might also vote against the Trump project

As for "The Acquisition of Right of Way" there is a right to roam law here in Scotland and that includes over golf courses, private or not.

That's irrelevant.  Paul asked a question and I responded to it by citing "eminent domain" and "AROW" as examples where similar situations and results occur.

With respect to AROW, it's Eminent Domain that's the mechanism or vehicle for that process


to do what? With compulsory purchase (eminent domain) you can also stop a right of way 'The Acquisition of Right of Way' which prevents the use of an established public right of way under certain circumstances. This has not been the case at the Trump project where the right to roam allows you to cross the course as you like except going on to the greens or interfering with play.
Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

the vast majority of the residence in immediate proximity to this project were very much against the project

Jon,

That's an enormous "qualifier"
How many residents are "in immediate proximity" ?    5 ?  10 ?  20 ?
Of those "in immediate proximity" how many were in favor and how many opposed ?


Patrick,

I reckon its about 25 people bordering the project. I know they are against it and have yet to hear anyone say it is a good thing
25 people hardly represent "The community"
That's just a small faction of the community.

Also you state "It seems to me, admittedly not knowing ALL the facts, that the community was behind the project".
How do you know this?

Because "The Community" approved the project.


and if there were to be a pole of the Scottish population I recon far more would be against than for it
How would you know the results of a poll BEFORE it's taken ?   Unless you're predisposed to the results.


as shown by the recipient of a recent award.

That's just one voice

You surprise and disappoint me Patrick You appear to be as poorly informed as Mr. Trump. The prise was not awarded by 'one voice' but was voted on by the public here in Scotland. So if the most well known opponent of the Trump project is voted as been the 'top Scot' by the SCOTTISH PUBLIC I would suppose the SCOTTISH PUBLIC might also vote against the Trump project

It's the vote to approve or disapprove the initiation of the project that counts, even if the vote is undertaken by the elected or appointed officials.

As for "The Acquisition of Right of Way" there is a right to roam law here in Scotland and that includes over golf courses, private or not.

That's irrelevant.  Paul asked a question and I responded to it by citing "eminent domain" and "AROW" as examples where similar situations and results occur.

With respect to AROW, it's Eminent Domain that's the mechanism or vehicle for that process


to do what? With compulsory purchase (eminent domain) you can also stop a right of way 'The Acquisition of Right of Way' which prevents the use of an established public right of way under certain circumstances. This has not been the case at the Trump project where the right to roam allows you to cross the course as you like except going on to the greens or interfering with play.

We're referencing the acquisition of LAND/PROPERTY for a project, not walking rights.

Stay in context.

[Sean_A]

Patrick

One correction, the "Community", as you term it, did not approve the project.  The "Community", as represented by the Local Authority, did not give Trump planning permission.  The Scottish government approved the application after the Local Authority refused planning permission.

Ciao   

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick

One correction, the "Community", as you term it, did not approve the project.  The "Community", as represented by the Local Authority, did not give Trump planning permission.  The Scottish government approved the application after the Local Authority refused planning permission.

Ciao   

Sean,

I'm surprised at you.  You know Patrick can't be corrected.  I can already see his response coming (as I'm sure you can too).

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

The "community" can be defined in many ways.  The 20-25 people who live in closest proximity to the links? The Lib Dem/Green minority rump of the Local Council who controlled the planning committee? The ~300,000 people living in Aberdeenshire who seem to overwhelmingly support the project?  The 5 million+ people of Scotland who are now represented by the Scottish National Party government?

Knowing Aberdeenshire and Scotland probably a wee bit better than you do, I'll go with the government and the people of Aberdeenshire rather than with Michael Forbes nd his groupies on this site...

Rich

[Paul Gray]

I was intrigued. Now I'm bewildered.

Patrick,

Consent was granted by elected politicians (in this case, the Scottish government). The electorate then spoke out to let their representatives know they weren't best pleased and, therefore, had not, in the eyes of many, represented the views held by many in the community. The only finite conclusion your line of argument seems to lead to is that, once elected, politicians have carte blanche to act outside of the wishes of their electorate. Scotland, last time I checked, was not a totalitarian, pseudo democracy.

[Sean_A]

Sean

The "community" can be defined in many ways.  The 20-25 people who live in closest proximity to the links? The Lib Dem/Green minority rump of the Local Council who controlled the planning committee? The ~300,000 people living in Aberdeenshire who seem to overwhelmingly support the project?  The 5 million+ people of Scotland who are now represented by the Scottish National Party government?

Knowing Aberdeenshire and Scotland probably a wee bit better than you do, I'll go with the government and the people of Aberdeenshire rather than with Michael Forbes nd his groupies on this site...

Rich

Rihc

You can twist your version of events in whichever manner you choose.  The facts remain the same.  Locally elected representatives refused planning permission.  Running contrary to locally elected representatives of the Local Authority (which it would seem have very little authority), the Scottish government made the decision to approve the application at the very last minute.    

Even if it is a good idea to make a decision such as this based on a poll when there are processes in place to do this very job, I don't know of a single independently conducted poll which was conclusively in favour of the Trump project.  Indeed, the Local Authority made bad mistakes after their decision was final, however, perhaps the greatest failing was not consulting the local population on the matter.  

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Knowing Aberdeenshire and Scotland probably a wee bit better than you do, I'll go with the government and the people of Aberdeenshire rather than with Michael Forbes nd his groupies on this site...

Rich

Rich I must have missed the glowing eulogies and hagiographies of Mr Malcom Forbes on here.  In my film review I pointed out the director seems to avoid showing  Mr Forbes because clearly he’s not really a sympathetic  character at all.  However it’s important that we recognise Trump behaved abominably to those living adjacent to his property, irrespective of how likeable those individuals most directly affected are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

In my limited experience, those who are dissatisfied are the vocal ones.
Those who are satisfied usually remain silent.
And, those who are neutral or unconcerned don't speak one way or the other.
So has there been a true referendum ?
Can you speak for everyone or just the vocal objectors ?

The bottom line is that the project went ahead as planned, one golf course is completed, a hotel phase underway, with a second golf course coming to bat.

The completed/operational course seems to have received glowing reviews, hence Trump produced a superior product as he had predicted/promised.

What persists is the whining

No one likes Trump.  Blah, blah, blah, blah

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean

The ~300,000 people living in Aberdeenshire who seem to overwhelmingly support the project?

Rich, got to call you out on this one. Please show the poll where the 300,000 people living in Aberdeenshire voted their support for this project.


The 5 million+ people of Scotland who are now represented by the Scottish National Party government?

If this were true then why are we having the referendum in 2014? following your logic the Scottish National Party government could decide this. But of course this is not the case. There was no vote in the scottish parliament which is the body elected as the peoples representatives though this does not mean that they represent public opinion. It was the Scottish Executive which approved it without a vote overturning the decision of the local planning committee. Not very democratic


Rich

Patrick,

with your point of view if you say something you are in the minority and wrong whilst those who remain silent are not against it. But that mean that your vocal point of view is also the minority view

Jon  

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