[John McCarthy]

Everyday with Brawndo.  It's what plants crave.

[Jason Topp]

Never except when growing in grass that washes away about once every two years.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think the hard part of not watering your lawn is how the lawn looks when you initially turn off the water, until the lawn adapts.

I think the same is true of golf courses, it's the initial transition that's traumatic to the membership.

If every committee, board and membership could visit Newport and Maidstone, maybe we'd make some progress.

If every super had the benefit of a dense rolling fog wandering over their golf course as often as it does at Newport and Maidstone, less water would be used 

I don't know that those courses get dense fog rolling in any more than other courses near the water.
And I'm not so sure they get lots of dense fog during the summer.
In the 30 years I've been playing both courses I've never had a fog bank roll in, whereas, at SFGC, Pebble Beach, CPC I've had fog banks roll in during play

I'll list a good number of waterside courses like Kitannsett, New Seabury, Pebble Beach, CPC, Spyglass, Spanish Bay, MPCC

[Ronald Montesano]

Never. In our neighborhood, the browns outnumber the greens, which is cool. Problem is, you can't convince the waterers to give up their crystal meth. They have to have green grass.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Here in North-West England we've had no need of watering anything, not even vegetables and fruit, for the past several years. This year has seen record rainfalls - our course was closed on Friday and again today, and there were closures to parts of the course on Saturday. Ours is one of the best drained courses in the region, but even it can't cope. We are losing fruit and vegetables to the wet and cold. You can expect the rough to be fierce at Lytham for the Open this year.

[Dan Kelly]

Never except when growing in grass that washes away about once every two years.

Exactly.

We live in the woods, which are forever in the process of taking over what passes for a lawn. It's not really a grass lawn; call it a grass-based, mixed-greens lawn. I water the flowers and the vegetables; the rest can fend for itself.

I played golf this weekend, twice, at a course (Indian Hills; Grant, Minnesota) whose maintenance meld makes me more than normally mental. The rough is fast and firm; the fairways are, as usual, lush and over-wet, and it's virtually impossible to get a ball to bounce onto a green. For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone (members or super) wants it that way. But they must want it that way, because that's the way it's been every time I've played there.

[RJ_Daley]

Never.  I love the green-up in spring and I pretend I'm in Ireland.  I embrace the brown out dormancy of summer, the crisp crinkle of brown turf under my feet in summer, and the renewal of new turf come sept oct.  I will rent and aerator after some good soaking in fall, hit it with some overseed occasionally, give it a good fall fert and that is it.  Spring I'll give it a pre-emerge for crab and other barnyard grasses, which I never conquer, and I just live with it.  I don't spare water on the tomatoes and peppers or basil, however... 

[Ben Sims]

I live in Del Rio, TX.  It is hot and dry. The soil is a horrid combination of crushed rock and caliche.  It is calcerous in a way that would make soil lab techs cry for mommy.  I must water.  Twice a week for 10 minutes.  So not a crazy amount.  Maybe if we haven't had any t-storms in while, I'll throw some water on it 3-5 minutes in the early morning to get just a bit of moisture in the upper soil/thatch. 

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period. 

[Jason Topp]

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period. 

Or - you could go with desert as most do in Tucson.  Once I got used to it I found grass lawns to be an eyesore there.

[Richard Choi]

Seriously, why wasted precious resource just for aesthetics? Why not grow native plants who can thrive in the dry/hot environment?

Why fight nature?

[Mark McKeever]

Jeff,

I think the hard part of not watering your lawn is how the lawn looks when you initially turn off the water, until the lawn adapts.

I think the same is true of golf courses, it's the initial transition that's traumatic to the membership.

If every committee, board and membership could visit Newport and Maidstone, maybe we'd make some progress.

I will take one for the team and go visit these two places Pat.   

 Mark

[Jim_Kennedy]

In the woods, in Ct., we never water our grass.

How many gatorades did you have to give away?

Tim,
Only a few, and most of them haven't been collected, yet.  

I was over in Kingston NY yesterday and the course we played was still somewhat green, but rock-hard.
On the way we passed a huge corn field and saw a portable watering cannon w/a 100'+ stream being used on it.  In all my years of living in the northeast I've never seen a farmer watering his corn in July. Not a good sign.

[Carl Nichols]

In the woods, in Ct., we never water our grass.

How many gatorades did you have to give away?

Tim,
Only a few, and most of them haven't been collected, yet.  

I was over in Kingston NY yesterday and the course we played was still somewhat green, but rock-hard.
On the way we passed a huge corn field and saw a portable watering cannon w/a 100'+ stream being used on it.  In all my years of living in the northeast I've never seen a farmer watering his corn in July. Not a good sign.

Jim:
Where did you play in Kingston?  My parents both grew up in Rhinebeck, and we lived only two hours from there when all of my grandparents were still alive, so I played a lot of golf in that region.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Carl,
We ended up at Rondout, which (as you know) has one of the prettiest views of the Catskills from its 1st tee.

[PGertner]

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period.


Amen. Many blowhards on this site have no concept of what it takes to maintain golf turf during summer, or anytime. They talk a good game but these posts just display their ignorance and arrogance. Nothing new as GCA has been a Super bashing site for some time now.

As a Supt, I also cringe when I read posts about wet spongy turf during summer. We aren't all perfect, but simply turning off the water isn't the answer either. (To me, wet spongy fairways = future job opportunities!!

.....Our fwys, less than 15 miles from Newport need irrigation....or they would be toast right now, and they will give anyone 25-50 yards of roll.

Also, does anyone truly want to back to fairways from the 1950's? I am quite sure anyone would be shocked at how poor they would be compared to 2012 fairways.

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI 


   

[JMEvensky]

Also, does anyone truly want to back to fairways from the 1950's? I am quite sure anyone would be shocked at how poor they would be compared to 2012 fairways.

uote]


PGert,I'm not remotely qualified to argue agronomy with you,but I'm very fluent in club Boards,Committees,and budgets.

Everyone keeps using extreme examples--either dead grass or lush fairways.This serves no purpose other then obscuring what I think is the biggest issue--whether there's a cost benefit to having Superintendents jump through all kinds of agronomic hoops to deliver a playing surface that might not be worth the money.

Do I want 1950's fairways?I'm not as old as Mucci but I can remember mid-60's muni fairways of common Bermuda.Were there weeds?Absolutely.Brown patches in August?Sure.But,as well as I can remember,every player dealt with the same imperfections.

I grew up with several guys who played at very high levels and not one of them ever said he'd have been more successful if it hadn't been for dandelions in the fairways.

So,if you tell me that all the costs attributable to maintaining fairways at 2012 levels will also go away,then I'll probably be just as happy as I was back then.

Yes,the turf is light years better now--but I don't think it's been worth it.The cost has been staggering,and the return de minimus.

[PGertner]

JMEvensky,

Agreed. Just like the cost of my daughter's college education, my car, government, housing, health care, insurance, a loaf of bread and a Titleist.

Supt's are just a lil slice of the world, providing conditions that we ourselves helped to create. We acknowledge it and understand it too.  Progress isn't always progress.

Be sure and stay tuned for next year's Masters that begins April 11, 2013. The bar and expectations will be raised higher once again.

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[Ken Moum]

Although my wife sometimes caves in a waters the stuff, I would never use any water at all here in Kansas.  Without rain my lawn is turning brown under the blazing sun, but I'll be damned if I will suffer a $300 water bill so it looks green.

I operate under the logic of Gordon Moir, Links Superintendent at St. Andrews.  When one member of our group told him over a Magners that she didn't think they used any water or fertilizer, he said, "Ma'am, we find that if we feed and water it, it just makes a lot of extra work."

K

[Cliff Hamm]

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period.


Amen. Many blowhards on this site have no concept of what it takes to maintain golf turf during summer, or anytime. They talk a good game but these posts just display their ignorance and arrogance. Nothing new as GCA has been a Super bashing site for some time now.

As a Supt, I also cringe when I read posts about wet spongy turf during summer. We aren't all perfect, but simply turning off the water isn't the answer either. (To me, wet spongy fairways = future job opportunities!!

.....Our fwys, less than 15 miles from Newport need irrigation....or they would be toast right now, and they will give anyone 25-50 yards of roll.

Also, does anyone truly want to back to fairways from the 1950's? I am quite sure anyone would be shocked at how poor they would be compared to 2012 fairways.

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI 


   

Patrick...played at Triggs on Monday, looking forward to firm conditions. As you know it's been quite dry.  Not firm.  Actually soft.  When I drove in the rough the ball rolled yards and yards.  Fairways were soft with no roll.  Hit the 12th with a 3 wood, I am not long, and ball was 1 foot behind ball mark.  Am I being unfair in thinking it is over watered?  Don't expect you to bash a colleague, but I wasd disappointed in how soft Triggs was.  When I play Shenny I don't find the same soft conditions. Curious as to your opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I live in Del Rio, TX.  It is hot and dry. The soil is a horrid combination of crushed rock and caliche.  It is calcerous in a way that would make soil lab techs cry for mommy.  I must water.  Twice a week for 10 minutes.  So not a crazy amount.  Maybe if we haven't had any t-storms in while, I'll throw some water on it 3-5 minutes in the early morning to get just a bit of moisture in the upper soil/thatch. 

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period. 

Ben,

Then how did all those courses survive before automated irrigation systems were introduced ?

[Greg Chambers]

I live in Del Rio, TX.  It is hot and dry. The soil is a horrid combination of crushed rock and caliche.  It is calcerous in a way that would make soil lab techs cry for mommy.  I must water.  Twice a week for 10 minutes.  So not a crazy amount.  Maybe if we haven't had any t-storms in while, I'll throw some water on it 3-5 minutes in the early morning to get just a bit of moisture in the upper soil/thatch. 

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period. 

Ben,

Then how did all those courses survive before automated irrigation systems were introduced ?

flood irrigation, ditch system irrigation, quick coupler irrigation, NO GOLF CARTS

[Ben Sims]

Patrick,

I am sure they survived just fine.  In the same vein, how did we get along all those years without cell phones?  Or better yet, why did all those people back in the 50's and 60's smoke cigarettes?  

I am not trying to be obtuse, honest.  But there is a reason that societies evolve and progress.  Are there issues with maintenance expectations being out of control?  I think so.  But taking the argument as far as insinuating that courses in Tuscon and San Antonio could learn a thing or two about irrigation from Maidstone is a bit presumptuous.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

#1 thing continues to drive me nuts on GCA.com is the ridiculous assumption that all of golfs maintenance ills in America could be solved by visiting Scotland or Long Island.  2/3's of the country is hot and dry, and grass needs water, period.

Did or does the grass in 2012 require substantially more water than the grass in the 50's and 60's ?

If so, WHY ?

Amen. Many blowhards on this site have no concept of what it takes to maintain golf turf during summer, or anytime.
They talk a good game but these posts just display their ignorance and arrogance.

And maybe, some are in denial and/or just being defensive.

Nothing new as GCA has been a Super bashing site for some time now.

I don't think that's true at all,
In many cases on GCA.com Super's have been commended for the job they do.
Just because you may not like the topic, doesn't mean that those participating are "Super Bashing"
I think you're just being defensive and taking the comments/debate personally.

As a Supt, I also cringe when I read posts about wet spongy turf during summer. We aren't all perfect, but simply turning off the water isn't the answer either. (To me, wet spongy fairways = future job opportunities!!

WHY isn't reducing water application the long term answer ? [/siize]

.....Our fwys, less than 15 miles from Newport need irrigation....or they would be toast right now, and they will give anyone 25-50 yards of roll.

Do you have any aerials of your course from the summers in the 50's and 60's before the automated irrigation system was introduced.
Were those fairways "toast" ?
Did the golfers at your club enjoy playing the course, even when the fairways were browned out ?

Also, does anyone truly want to back to fairways from the 1950's?
I am quite sure anyone would be shocked at how poor they would be compared to 2012 fairways.

"Poor" in what way ?
LOOKS or PLAYABILITY ?
I can assure you it wouldn't be playability.

How do you know how fairways played in the 50's ?

[Sam Morrow]

Gotta love GCA, a thread about watering your lawn has turned into a pissing match. I need to go to bed but kinda wanna watch yall go at it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I am sure they survived just fine.  In the same vein, how did we get along all those years without cell phones?  Or better yet, why did all those people back in the 50's and 60's smoke cigarettes?  

I am not trying to be obtuse, honest.  But there is a reason that societies evolve and progress.  Are there issues with maintenance expectations being out of control?  I think so.  But taking the argument as far as insinuating that courses in Tuscon and San Antonio could learn a thing or two about irrigation from Maidstone is a bit presumptuous.  

Ben, that's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard on GCA.com.

Where did I or anyone equate conditions at Maidstone with conditions in Tuscon and San Antonio ?

Ditto South Florida.

One of the reasons that Common Bermuda was replaced at so many courses in South Florida was because it turned purple when it went dormant in the winter and the snowbirds wanted to see lush green when they came to Florida.

Does that mean that the golfers in Florida could learn a thing or two from the golfers at Maidstone ?
No, it doesn't, obviously Mother Nature dictates terms and those terms differ in South Florida and Easthampton.

Please, stop leaping to extremes and try to understand the issue in a global sense.

Your courses in Texas survived quite well over the last 60, 70 and 80 years, they survived quite well and were enjoyable to play even though the fairways didn't have automated irrigation making them emerald green.

So what happened to change all of that ?

And what would happen if water use was both restricted and made exponentially more expensive ?

What would happen if it cost your club $ 1,000,000 to irrigate next year, versus $ 100,000 this year ?

You'd reduce costs by using less water and your members would still enjoy playing the golf course, just as the members did 60 and 50 years ago.

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