[Anders Rytter]

I guess I've also read too much into your "miss one hole" sentence. Having 8 par 5's for ladies and several very long forced carries for them (as far as i recall) is a different story than for the average/good male golfer.

I haven't been to Pine Valley, but i thought that it was also very very severe for anyone but a few?

Ted, you're hitting on one thing that I would make different between the Doak Scale and the Thurman Scale. The Doak Scale won't give a 10 to any course with a merely good but insignificant hole. Personally, I love Pebble Beach for its 12 or so phenomenal holes and don't care so much that 15 is just solid and 12 is a hit and hope shot. To me, missing the great holes at Pebble is missing perhaps the best collection of great holes around (though I haven't played Pine Valley), and that makes it a 10 even if you won't dream about standing on the 12th tee after your round.

Here's a question. If the Confidential Guide lists 316 courses at a Doak 6 or better, can we take a guess at where a Doak 6 ranks in the US/world? Obviously Tom Doak didn't play every course on the planet to rate them on his scale. Are there 1000 Doak 6s in the world? More? Fewer? What about in the US? I don't think of a 6 as being THAT stringent, and I don't think its definition suggests it should be. Yet, I hear people who seem to think anything outside the Top 100 lists of GolfWeek can't possibly rate above a 5...

Also, how many Doak 0s are there? I've only played one course that I would call a 0, and it was enough of a debacle to see that I'd suggest visiting 0s to be just as important for someone truly interested in architecture as visiting 10s.

Jason:

I have been working on the math related to your second paragraph, above, checking my own ratings against a few other people whose opinions I respect.  The consensus seems to be that there are nowhere near 1000 courses in the world that would get a 6 on my scale -- I think it's maybe 500 or 600 at the most.  Not all of the 5's on my scale would make the top 1000, but quite a few of them probably would.

I don't think your take on the differences between your scale and mine is entirely right, though.  It's not the case that one bad hole or one boring hole will keep a course out of the 10's, or there wouldn't even be a dozen of them; the most important thing is for the course to appeal to different kinds of golfers at different levels, and I just think that Ballybunion and Dornoch, for example, do that better than Royal County Down. 

County Down is a wonderful place -- all the 9's in my book are wonderful places -- but it's a bit intimidating for most golfers.  And I wouldn't agree with Ted that County Down [or Pebble Beach, or practically any other course] has more great holes than Cypress Point or Crystal Downs or Dornoch.  I'm starting to wonder if I agree with Ted about anything. 

[Sean Leary]

Tom clarified his "miss one hole" comment a while back on here and changed his wording a bit for 10's.

[Anders Rytter]

Thanks Sean, I'll go hunting!

[Ted Sturges]

County Down is a wonderful place -- all the 9's in my book are wonderful places -- but it's a bit intimidating for most golfers.  And I wouldn't agree with Ted that County Down [or Pebble Beach, or practically any other course] has more great holes than Cypress Point or Crystal Downs or Dornoch.  I'm starting to wonder if I agree with Ted about anything. 

Tom,

My list of "great golf holes" at Royal County Down would include 11 holes (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,13, and 15).  I know we won't agree on how many great holes they have there (indeed, we aren't agreeing on much lately  ), but I don't get to 11 "great golf holes" at CD.  Being your home club, you likely consider that course in a different light, so let's move on to Cypress Point (but I'd be interested to see if you list more than 10 "great holes" at CD). 

My list of "great golf holes" at Cypress would include 8 holes (6,7,8,9,13,15,16 and 17). 

TS
 

[Anders Rytter]

Found it

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35496.35.html

And text:

Tom H:  You are right about the definition of a "10" in The Confidential Guide.  People are always quoting it to tell me why some course is worthy, or not worthy; and I really didn't mean it that way.  Ballybunion is one of the 10's on the Doak scale (and probably not the only one) where there are a couple of holes of which I don't think so highly ... but I still gave it a 10, so my definition must be not quite right.

I guess a better definition would be that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole.  However, I do not have enough cash on hand to buy back all of the Confidential Guides and make the edit.

[Anders Rytter]

And:

LOL!

Tom Huckaby:

Of course we cannot and shall not have all of the CG's edited... but given that the coin of the realm IN THIS FORUM for evaulating golf courses does seem to be your scale... and people do misapply this so often... how about one and all HERE give up on this "every hole must be fantastic" way of looking at a Doak 10, and rather look at it as Tom now explains (which I always kinda figured, btw - patting myself on the back):

10: Nearly perfect.  Every hole at the very least adds something of value to the course as a hole. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

Whaddya think?  Start here and perhaps others get the idea...

Tom Doak
Alright, Huck.  You're my new editor.  Every time the discussion comes up from now forward, you are welcome to post the revised definiton.

Have fun with that. 

[John Crowley]

As a newbie, frequent reader but infrequent poster, I find some of the interpretations of what Tom meant by "you would miss something worth seeing" too doctrinaire (that every single hole must be great). To me, he said a 10 course was "nearly perfect" and that each hole had some interest even though it may not be a great one.

I have my sights on four of the five 10s that I have yet to play. Didn't get to Royal Melbourne when in Australia and may not ever.

Am anticipating that the 2014 book may have tweaks to the Doak scale and that some new 10s will be identified.

I respectfully submit that Tom work on a device to not leave his own work out of the next "Guide". Might it be via a respected "guest writer" colleague applying the "Scale" and description to Tom's best courses. How could Ballyneal and Old MacDonald (and others I have not played) not be recognized for their quality.
IMHO.
John Crowley

[Martin Toal]

Leaving aside the question of whether course A is better than course B or not, isn't it cool that we can debate these issues and have the author take an active part? What other websites does that happen on?

[Tom_Doak]

I respectfully submit that Tom work on a device to not leave his own work out of the next "Guide". Might it be via a respected "guest writer" colleague applying the "Scale" and description to Tom's best courses. How could Ballyneal and Old MacDonald (and others I have not played) not be recognized for their quality.
IMHO.
John Crowley

John:

Rest assured that I do not plan to write and self-publish a book about all the great courses I have ever seen, only to leave all of my own work out of the book because someone might think my opinions are "biased". 

[Ken Moum]

Rest assured that I do not plan to write and self-publish a book about all the great courses I have ever seen, only to leave all of my own work out of the book because someone might think my opinions are "biased". 

As someone has said about a different rating system (Ralph Maltby's golf club "playability" rating), where his clubs all rank pretty high, "If the guy who developed the rating system didn't design clubs that scored well, you'd have to question his belief in his own system.

I can't imagine a reason why you'd allow your name and reputation to be hitched to a golf course that didn't embody the attributes you identified in the process of creating the Confidential Guide.

Well, I can imagine a reason, but whoring doesn't seem like something you'd be likely to do.   

[Kevin Pallier]

From the courses I listed that have opended since 1995 - I'd give them the following Doak rankings:

Pacific Dunes 10
Cape Kidnappers 9
Friar's Head 9
Barnbougle Dunes 9
Kingsbarns 8
Bandon Dunes 7
Old Macdonald 10
Kauri Cliffs 7
Lost Farm 8
Bandon Trails 9
The National (Moonah) 8
St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta) 8
The Golf Club Kennedy Bay 8
Woburn (Marquess) 6
Old Head of Kinsale 6
Sebonack 7

[Jud_T]

Kevin,

Pac Dunes is a layup for a 9 or 10.  Some might put Ballyneal in that heady company but I'd need to give it a few more plays to make that call.  Old Mac and Kingsley are VERY good but probably fall just short of the highest rank.  I may be wrong but I believe Tom is on record as saying that Friar's Head is a 9.

[Shane Wright]

I have only seen and played 7 of the courses on Kevin's list above but in my opinion, Ballyneal is also a layup for a 9/10. 

I have only played 8 of the 9/10's from the CG and each one has at least one or two holes that are weak and obviously several spectacular ones.  Ballyneal certainly fits this same mold with probably only one hole I would consider average at best.

I know this has been discussed a bunch before, but Ballyneal has got to be a 9/10.

[George Pazin]

I think Augusta National -- remember this was 1985 -- and Oakmont were both 9s.

I didn't buy TCG the first time I picked it up in a book store for this very reason!

I've given away 3 (to my recollection, it's been awhile), looking forward to giving away more in a few years.

[Phil McDade]

I think Augusta National -- remember this was 1985 -- and Oakmont were both 9s.

I didn't buy TCG the first time I picked it up in a book store for this very reason!

I've given away 3 (to my recollection, it's been awhile), looking forward to giving away more in a few years.

George:

I've always wondered if Tom's initial assessment of Oakmont as a 9, and not a 10, was due to when he reviewed it -- before the massive tree-clearance project at that club that's won many accolades among golf architecture nuts. For the most part, I think you can discern some common characteristics of his original 10s, and perhaps Oakmont was overly treed for his tastes.

[George Pazin]

I think Augusta National -- remember this was 1985 -- and Oakmont were both 9s.

I didn't buy TCG the first time I picked it up in a book store for this very reason!

I've given away 3 (to my recollection, it's been awhile), looking forward to giving away more in a few years.

George:

I've always wondered if Tom's initial assessment of Oakmont as a 9, and not a 10, was due to when he reviewed it -- before the massive tree-clearance project at that club that's won many accolades among golf architecture nuts. For the most part, I think you can discern some common characteristics of his original 10s, and perhaps Oakmont was overly treed for his tastes.

I just figured he shot a big number...

In all seriousness, I haven't seen any of the other 10s in person, so Tom's analysis may be spot on. I do think Oakmont goes to 11, but then again, everyone is tiring of hearing me answer Oakmont to every question on here.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I've always wondered if Tom's initial assessment of Oakmont as a 9, and not a 10, was due to when he reviewed it -- before the massive tree-clearance project at that club that's won many accolades among golf architecture nuts. For the most part, I think you can discern some common characteristics of his original 10s, and perhaps Oakmont was overly treed for his tastes.

I just figured he shot a big number...

In all seriousness, I haven't seen any of the other 10s in person, so Tom's analysis may be spot on. I do think Oakmont goes to 11, but then again, everyone is tiring of hearing me answer Oakmont to every question on here.

George:

I've never shot any number at Oakmont.  It's the only course in the top 50 in the world that I haven't played ... unless they have Whistling Straits in the top fifty.  I've walked it five different times, but never had a chance to play.  And I will admit that it would be hard for me to give any course a 10 rating, without playing it.  [In fact, it's the only course I rated a 9 I haven't played, and I would have to think a bit whether I rated any course an 8 that I haven't played.]

The reason it wasn't a 10 had to do with my perception of what made them tick.  Every time I was there, the only thing anybody would talk about was how brutally hard it was and how ridiculously fast they were maintaining the greens.  Those are just not the highest priorities of the courses that are rated 10's on the Doak scale, but you could say the same thing for some of the other 9's. 

[PThomas]

how hard is Oakmont?  The club championship was won with a score of +21 for 54 holes! by a guy with a +0.1 index!

[Richard Choi]

Am I the only one who is just as excited about the updated list of Doak 0's as much as new Doak 10's?

[Tom_Doak]

Am I the only one who is just as excited about the updated list of Doak 0's as much as new Doak 10's?

Richard:

Don't count on getting this.  I will reserve the right not to comment on any particular course, having learned how controversial it is to give a course a rating of 0.  Nearly all of the interviews I've done about the book spent more time asking about the 0's than the 10's.

Also, I understand that at least half the courses I rated a 0 originally have been significantly changed, or even closed, but I haven't gone back to any of them to see for myself.

[Sam Morrow]

I'll gladly write the 0 list.

[Richard Choi]

Don't count on getting this.  I will reserve the right not to comment on any particular course, having learned how controversial it is to give a course a rating of 0.  Nearly all of the interviews I've done about the book spent more time asking about the 0's than the 10's.

[Mike Hendren]

Am I the only one who is just as excited about the updated list of Doak 0's as much as new Doak 10's?

Why - are you rooting for Awarii Dunes?

Bogey

[Ed Brzezowski]

No love or tens for Kingsbarn??   I find that hard to believe.

Tough crowd  here at GCA.

[Kevin Pallier]

From the courses I listed above that have opened since 1995 - I'd give them the following Doak rankings:

Pacific Dunes 10
Cape Kidnappers 9
Friar's Head 9
Barnbougle Dunes 9
Kingsbarns 8
Bandon Dunes 7
Old Macdonald 10
Kauri Cliffs 7
Lost Farm 8
Bandon Trails 9
The National (Moonah) 8
St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta) 8
The Golf Club Kennedy Bay 8
Woburn (Marquess) 6
Old Head of Kinsale 6
Sebonack 7

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