Who designed Olympic - Lakeside

[Tom MacWood]

I've seen it attributed to William Watson, Sam Whiting, and Wilfred Reid.

[Sam Morrow]

I've seen it attributed to William Watson, Sam Whiting, and Wilfred Reid.

Ralph Plummer

[Tom MacWood]

Sam
You are the Ralph Plummer of this site.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam
You are the Ralph Plummer of this site.

Well thank you, he is quite undereducated.

[David_Tepper]

My understanding is Wilfred Reid designed the original course on that property for the Lakeside Club in 1917-18. Watson & Whiting designed the Lake & Ocean Courses after the Olympic Club bought the property and acquired enough additional property to build 2 courses in the 1920's. Little, if any, of the original Reid course was incorporated into the courses designed by Watson & Reid.

[David_Tepper]

This is actually from the club's website:

"In 1918, the Club assumed control of the operations of the financially distressed Lakeside Golf Club, thus gaining the 18-hole golf course designed by  Wilfred Reid.  By 1922, the Club purchased enough acreage to replace the original golf course with two 18-hole golf courses, as well as build a new clubhouse.  The Lakeside clubhouse, designed by famed architect Arthur Brown, Jr. (who also designed the San Francisco City Hall) opened in 1925.  Willie Watson designed and Superintendent Sam Whiting constructed the first Ocean (Pacific Links) and Lake Courses in 1924. Due to storms during the winter of 1925/1926, the second Lake Course (today’s) and Ocean course were designed by Sam Whiting and opened in 1927."

[DMoriarty]

David, That is interesting but didn't quite a lot from the original Watson Lake course survive past 1927?

[DMoriarty]

Here is a map, April 1923, from The Spring Valley Water Company Magazine "San Francisco Water" (Volume II, Number 2).



______________________________________

Whoops I just reread the initial post and see you are asking about the original Lakeside course not the Lake Course.  Stoopid me.


I'll leave the map up if anyone cares.

[David_Tepper]

"but didn't quite a lot from the original Watson Lake course survive past 1927?"

DMoriarity -

I don't know the answer to your question. My guess is the damage done in the storms of the winter of 1924-25 impacted the Ocean Course much more than the Lake Course. It is likely that much more of Watson's Lake Course survived intact, so it is certainly possible that Whiting kept the Lake Course pretty much as it was when it re-opened in 1927. However, that is just a guess on my part.

Note that the course Wilfred Reid designed in 1917 was for the Lakeside Club, which at that time was not affiliated with the Olympic Club. The Olympic Club bought the property after that course was built and then bought more land adjacent to that property so that 2 courses could be built. Reid's course was pretty much plowed under for the 1923-24 Watson-Whiting 36-hole project shown in the map you have posted.

DT      

[DMoriarty]

Yes I meant Watson.  Thanks.  I think they may have had to change some holes on the Lake to get the new configuration on Ocean, but I am not sure. 

I don't know the answer to the initial question.   

[David_Tepper]

Also note the current routing of the Lake Course is appreciably different from the routing shown on the 1923 map. I recognize only 6 holes on that map as being part of the current Lake Course. They would be current holes 1, 2, 3, 4, 16 & 17.

I think the club may have acquired some additional land (thru a lease from the city of San Francisco) between the property line shown on the map and Lake Merced. Holes 13, 14 & 15 of the current Lake Course sit on that land.   

[Tom MacWood]

That is a remarkable old drawing.

I assumed the Lake and Lakeside were one and the same, my mistake.

Is Reid's Lakeside the Lake course or is Lakeside incorporated into Watson's Lake & Ocean or is it gone completely, in other words, did Watson start from scratch?

[David_Tepper]

"Is Reid's Lakeside the Lake course or is Lakeside incorporated into Watson's Lake & Ocean or is it gone completely, in other words, did Watson start from scratch?"

Tom M. -

As I stated in an earlier post, I am almost certain that Reid's 1917 design for the 18-hole Lakeside Club was pretty much plowed under when Watson & Whiting collaborated to design & build the Lake & Ocean courses in 1923-24. It is possible that Watson/Whiting incorporated certain green sites and/or playing corridors from Reid's existing design.

There is a proposed design for the Lake Course done by Seth Raynor in the 1920's that hangs in the OC clubhouse.   

DT 

[Tom MacWood]

David
I was looking at the old SF Water booklet from 1923 and it claimed Watson designed Lincoln Park. I was not aware of that. Here is a link to the history of Lincoln Park, evidently the course was expanded around 1914-17, but no mention of who was responsible. Do you know anything about that?

https://sites.google.com/site/lincolnparkgolfclub/History-of-Lincoln-Park

[David_Tepper]

Tom M. -

Sorry, but I know nothing about the design of Lincoln Park. Sean Tully might.

I may have a chance to talk to someone else over this weekend who might know. I will ask him and let you know if he has any knowledge.

With regards to the map from the SF Water booklet, can we say for sure that the Lake & Ocean Courses were routed & built exactly as shown on that map? I can't.

DT

[TEPaul]

I didn't realize it until yesterday but it is looking like the most amazing of them all----MAX BEHR----might've had a hand in it somehow along the way. I'm told the evidence is a little vague right now though.

[DMoriarty]

More evidence that a little knowledge in the wrong hands can lead to some pretty strange legends and myths. Max Behr did design Lakeside but in Los Angeles. His Lakeside is in LA.   (I recall reading something about a consultation at Olympic Lake I the mid 1920's,  but I don't know if the author was confusing this with the LA project.)

[Sean_Tully]

Who designed Lakeside Golf Club?

Fovargue
Reid
Donaldson

I prefer that order as from my research Fovie stayed and worked for Mungo Ball Manufacturers and had adverts for design work.

Behr was brought in by club in 1926 to consult and that is all he did. He spoke highly of whitings work and only had minor points to make.

Behr and Whiting went on to work together down the road at Capuchino Golf  and CC.

Tully

[David_Tepper]

Sean T. -

Now i am a little confused, as I have never heard of Fovargue and Donaldson. I presume they worked with Reid on the original Lakeside GC course that was built in 1917, but had no involvement in the Watson-Whiting 36-hole project in 1923-24. Is that correct?

DT 

[Sean_Tully]

David-

Can't speak to why the OC only lists Reid, maybe for the same reason you speak as most people don't know them. I happen to have a few guys Im interested in the Bay area and "Fovie" is one of them.

F-D-R only did work on the original Lakeside course. They all went there seperate ways Donaldson to the Chicago Golf Club
Not sure of Reid. Fovie did some other work in the area at Wawona and Victoria down in LA before moving to Washington and working in the ship yards during the war. 

Seab

[Dan King]

Curtis Strange thinks you guys are all wrong about Olympic Club history.  He believes it was Old Tom Morris.

I listened to this a couple times.  Today he said,, "Golf course is holding up. Designed in 1860, not bad in 2012."

Cheers,
Dan King

One day if I go to heaven…I’ll look around and say “It ain’t bad, but it ain’t San Francisco”.
 --Herb Caen

[mike_beene]

Dan,I heard that also.Seems like a fairly basic fact for him to mess up and no one correct.

[Dan King]

mike_beene writes:
Dan,I heard that also.Seems like a fairly basic fact for him to mess up and no one correct.

Yeah, they got their facts a little bit mixed up. The Olympic Athletic Club was founded in 1860. But one would think people who have spent their entire life in golf would realize 1860 is too early to be designing a course in San Francisco.

Cheers,
Dan King

It is a good thing the early settlers landed on the East Coast; if they’d landed in San Francisco first, the rest of the country would still be uninhabited. 
 --Herbert Mye

[Tom MacWood]

Yes, unfortunately I heard that too, but it fairness to the other broadcasters it would have taken someone with enormous skill to diplomatically correct that whopper and not have Strange come across as a complete idiot.

[David Harshbarger]

Yes, unfortunately I heard that too, but it fairness to the other broadcasters it would have taken someone with enormous skill to diplomatically correct that whopper and not have Strange come across as a complete idiot.

Having gone through the ship manifests from that time, there's nothing to corroborate Old Tom travelling to SF.  I'm somewhat surprised Berman didn't bring that up.