Classic Chicago/Wisconsin golf

[Sven Nilsen]

Same list with my scores, prices (weekend walking) and thoughts:

Ravisloe (6) - $60 - might not be as well conditioned as when it was private, but they do try to keep it fairly F&F

Harborside (either one)(4) - $95 - might look pretty, but the deep rough is kept way too thick and turf is generally soft

Big Run (5) - $50 - lose some trees and there's probably a decent course to be found

Bolingbrook (3) - $100 - This, not The Glen Club, is the most overpriced course in the area.

Prairie Landing (6) - $84 - Solid, and fairly well priced.

Cog #4 (6) - $155 - Pocket the $98, kick yourself in the nuts and play Cog #2 instead, you'll be better off.

Cog #2 (5) - $57 - See above.

Ruffled Feathers (4) - $105 - Over-priced, over-water hazarded and over-housed, but their early season deals make it tolerable.

Orchard Valley (5) - $61 - Where Ruffled Feathers should be priced.

Highlands of Elgin (6) - $46 - Totally worth it, although not the easiest walk.

Thunderhawk (6) - $62 - Some complain that the course takes the driver out of your hand.  True in spots, but generally a fun course.

Pine Meadow (6) - $73 - Big and brawny, but lacking in the fun factor.  Generally conditioning has been lacking and has a very fuzzy feel.

Glen Ellyn (NA) - $59 - Never played, hear its a good value.

Cantigny (6) - $95 - When the greens are running and you play the best 18 hole combo, this is pretty good.  Still overpriced.

The Glen Club (6) - $155-185 - I'd rather play twice (in some cases 4X) at the rest of the courses on the list.  Not overly difficult in parts.

Shepherd's Crook (6) - $45 - F&F, walking encouraged, cheap, great ground game options and green contours.  Have to stomach the garbage dump.

I know Pat Craig, and I'm sorry he spent so much time playing Wilmette.  There are better options within a half hour's drive.  Winnetka is built on the town's flood plain, and it shows.  To rank either of those courses above or equal to Shepherd's Crook, Thunderhawk, Cog #2 or Rav is silly.

To give you some basis for analysis, I'd give Skokie, OFN, Beverly, Butler and The Dunes Club an 8, and Flossmoor, OFS, Knollwood and Old Elm a 7.

[J_ Crisham]

Sven, where do you rank Chicago golf club and shoreacres?

[Andy Troeger]

Sven,
If there are that many 6's, 7's, and 8's in Chicago, I think your scale is a bit higher than mine! I haven't played enough of those courses to comment very thoroughly, but I'd have Butler and OFCC South as 6's, Dunes probably a 7, Cog #4 as a 5, and OFCC North probably is an 8. I'm not a big Butler or Cog Hill fan, admittedly, compared to their magazine rankings.

[Brian Hilko]

Pine meadow as a 7.5! I have had dozens of rounds at Pine and the holes still blur together. I have always enjoyed George Dunne National a lot more. I know it doesn't get much love but I enjoy the variety of holes out there and the bunkers are pretty well placed. Also some intrestings greens like the boomerang on the par 3 7th. I enjoy the risk reward holes like number 4 and number 11 and the 4 par 5s are fun. You can keep 18 though. That is the one thing pine has is a better finisher.

Pine meadow- 4
George dunne- 5

I am a little more critical with the scale. I also have no course in Chicago above an 8.

Skokie- 8
Butler- 8
Chicago-7
Old elm-7
Beverly- 6.5
Shore - 6.5
Floosmoor -6
Cog- 5.5
Conway- 6
Onwentsia- 5.5
Ravi- 6
North Shore- 5
Knollwood- 6.5
Kemper 5.5
Chicago Highland- 6
Highlands Of Elgin -6

I could list a bunch more 5's but my brain is fried from a long day at work.

[Mark Johnson]

i wasnt aware the conditioning of pine meadow had gone down so much.   The last time I played it (last september), greens were running 10-10.5 and were nearly perfect.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, where do you rank Chicago golf club and shoreacres?

Jack:

I haven't played Chicago Golf.  I'd put Shoreacres at an 8, but I'm a big Raynor fan and my bias plays into the rating.

My big issue with Pine Meadow isn't really the conditioning, although I can't say I've ever seen it in the shape Mark just described.  To me, it is kind of a boring course, one where I don't find myself questioning the type of shot required.  It does test the driver in places, but in general you're not really punished for being on the wrong side of a fairway.  The size of the greens means an approach is possible from just about anywhere, and the greens themselves have little in the way of interesting internal contours (the 10th hole being an exception, as I'm a big fan of the back right pin position on that hole).

I'd much rather play courses like Shoreacres, Ravisloe or Shepherds Crook where the pin position has a greater effect on how the hole is played.

Sven

[J_ Crisham]

Sven, I would agree that shoreacres is an 8. Each time I play Chicago golf club I have a greater opinion of it. The property is rather flattish yet still offers some uneven lies and uphill shots. The greens are simply wonderful.As I learned from a member earlier today the course is looking spectacular this season. I rate CGC as a strong 9. I rate CPC  , Shinny,and The National ahead of it. I feel that CGC is at the same level as Merion or  Seminole. Slightlt ahead of prairie dunes and Oakland hills which are damned good. Have a game scheduled at CGC in a few weeks- hopefully I will learn more of her subtleties.

[George Freeman]

Butler- 8
Chicago-7

Butler rated higher than Chicago Golf?  Eek!!

[Brian Hilko]

I just can't rate shore that high. The good holes are fantastic such 10, 11, 6, 14, and 15. I just found that the course had a lot of snoozers for such a highly regarded course. I thought 1, 3, 9, 18, and 17 all to be ho hum. I also feel number 13 is just an awkward hole. 12 is a great setting but I feel overall the par 3s were average versions of raynor/ mac templates. I felt Chicago's collection to be much bolder. I love the green on short at Chicago better. I felt like eden was much more difficult at Chicago. The redan at Chicago it just pure fun and feels more natural. If Chicago used the whole biarritz I would call a tie. Right now I love Shores better. To me Shore feels water downed compared to Chicago. I still love Shore but Chicago is a much stronger track in my opinion.

[Brian Hilko]

Butler- 8
Chicago-7

Butler rated higher than Chicago Golf?  Eek!!

I know that is aggresive. I use to bad mouth Butler because I am not a fan of penal golf. The more I play there I have come to realize it is the best strategic golf course in Chicago. You have to think your way through every shot. I use to hate how tight holes like 9 and 3 get but you can lay back to genorous landing areas and hit a tougher approach in. Butler is one of the most fair hard courses I have ever played. I also love the multiple sets of tees from diff. angles on a lot of the holes. The course always feels diff. when I play it. The first time I played Butler I had it at a 6. With each visit it shows me something new. This to me makes a great course. That is why I rate it as one of the best in Chicago.

[Kevin Jackson]

I just finalized the date for my annual golf outing with my older brothers.  One lives in Chicago, the other in Milwaukee.  I am looking to play the best possible public course in either the Chicagoland area or Milwaukee area.  Can I get some suggestions as to the best tracks up there.  Also, not knowing what our budget will be, can you give a must-play in each of three categories: <$80. $81-$150. >$150.

[Phil McDade]

I just finalized the date for my annual golf outing with my older brothers.  One lives in Chicago, the other in Milwaukee.  I am looking to play the best possible public course in either the Chicagoland area or Milwaukee area.  Can I get some suggestions as to the best tracks up there.  Also, not knowing what our budget will be, can you give a must-play in each of three categories: <$80. $81-$150. >$150.

Kevin:

I'm not sure there is a ton to recommend in terms of publics in the greater Milwaukee area, save for Erin Hills (which is about 45 minutes from downtown proper -- it's way out there in the northwest ex-urbs). But, if you want to play an upcoming US Open course, I'd recommend it -- there is some very good golf out there, on some great land, although it's a rugged walk and the routing is a bit awkward, for my tastes. It's $150+ if you take a caddie.

There is also Brown Deer, a true muni, which for several years hosted the PGA Tour stop in Brewtown. Solid course, a bit repetitious, on rolling terrain.

Both Kohler (Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run -- which is probably close to being closed for the Women's Open) and Lawsonia are 1-2 hours or so from Milwaukee. The Kohler courses are the most expensive in the state; Lawsonia is @ $100 during the peak times of the summer.

Two courses near the Illinois-Wisconsin border: Shepherd's Crook, in Zion, a Keith Foster linksy course that lots of folks here on GCA like; and the well-below-the-radar Spring Valley, west of Kenosha and just north of Antioch, Ill., a cool Langford/Moreau course sans sandtraps, and not overly conditioned, but the bones of a fascinating course.

[Jud_T]

Kevin,

The Links course at Lawsonia is the only must play public near either city IMO.  It's $59 to walk Mon-Thurs. an $90 Fri-Sun in season (cart included fri-sun).  There's also an all-day rate, and you can drink all the New Glarus your belly will hold in Green Lake...  Some people will tell you you're nuts for not playing Whistling Straights (and paying $360 plus caddie for the privilege).  I'm not one of those people...  

[Terry Lavin]

The continued love gca affair with Ravisloe is really ridiculous.  Rav, even in its heyday, when they spent money on the course, wouldn't merit more than a Doak 4, except by its most ardent member advocates.  Now, it's slipped lower.  There are maybe five solid holes on the course, a bunch of stinkers out near 183rd street and the rest are run of the mill.  Esler did a nice job, but give me a break, I wouldn't travel five miles to play Ravisloe, with the other competition in the area.  It's the best course in Homewood, I'll grant you that.  I'm playing nearby Idewild this afternoon and it is now clearly superior to Ravisloe, which wasn't always the case, trust me.

As for my own personal rankings, here they are:

8:  Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, Olympia North
7:  Medinah #3, Butler, Beverly, Olympia South, North Shore, Skokie
6:  Knollwood, Glen Club, Cog Hill #4, Kemper, Conway, Flossmoor
5:  Sunset Ridge, Ridgemoor, Bryn Mawr, Calumet, LaGrange, Ruth Lake, Chicago Highlands

The publics that everybody mentioned that I've played, like Cog #2, Big Run, Prairie Landing, Orchard Valley, Harborside, etc. are all under a 5, as are a bunch of other privates that I didn't mention.  I haven't played Onwentsia, Old Elm, Glen View Club.  I may have missed some, but I'm on my way out the door.

[Sven Nilsen]

I just finalized the date for my annual golf outing with my older brothers.  One lives in Chicago, the other in Milwaukee.  I am looking to play the best possible public course in either the Chicagoland area or Milwaukee area.  Can I get some suggestions as to the best tracks up there.  Also, not knowing what our budget will be, can you give a must-play in each of three categories: <$80. $81-$150. >$150.

Kevin:

If you want something in between the two cities, play Thunderhawk or Shepherd's Crook, or both.  Spring Valley is worth a detour if you have time as an add on.

If you're going to be in Chicago, everything is going to be a bit of drive.  On the expensive side, you could go with Cog #4 (SW), Cantigny (W) or Pine Meadow (N).  For non-GCA types, Cog will be the easiest sell and have the biggest wow factor.  On the cheap side, take the drive out to Elgin and play The Highlands.  Its a fun course, very playable and their 36-hole cost makes it feel like you're robbing them.

In Milwaukee, Erin Hills is the closest best option.  If you're okay with a bit of a drive, play Lawsonia.

[Bill Seitz]

5:  Sunset Ridge, Ridgemoor, Bryn Mawr, Calumet, LaGrange, Ruth Lake, Chicago Highlands

Sunset Ridge and Lagrange over Edgewood Valley?  I've played all three in CDGA qualifiers, and I thought Edgewood Valley was much better than both Sunset and Lagrange.  Heck, I might even put Ridge Country Club over those two. 

I like Ravisloe because I think it's generally fun to play, not too expensive, and I can walk on pretty easily most of the time on a weekend afternoon.  I don't think it's the pinnacle of design or anything, but I typically have a good time when I'm out there, with one notable exception (but that was while practicing).

[Jud_T]

Terry,

What exactly are the stinker holes?  If you're referring to the stretch of 5,6 & 7, only 6 isn't that interesting IMO...

[Sven Nilsen]

The continued love gca affair with Ravisloe is really ridiculous.  Rav, even in its heyday, when they spent money on the course, wouldn't merit more than a Doak 4, except by its most ardent member advocates.  Now, it's slipped lower.  There are maybe five solid holes on the course, a bunch of stinkers out near 183rd street and the rest are run of the mill.  Esler did a nice job, but give me a break, I wouldn't travel five miles to play Ravisloe, with the other competition in the area.  It's the best course in Homewood, I'll grant you that.  I'm playing nearby Idewild this afternoon and it is now clearly superior to Ravisloe, which wasn't always the case, trust me.

As for my own personal rankings, here they are:

8:  Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, Olympia North
7:  Medinah #3, Butler, Beverly, Olympia South, North Shore, Skokie
6:  Knollwood, Glen Club, Cog Hill #4, Kemper, Conway, Flossmoor
5:  Sunset Ridge, Ridgemoor, Bryn Mawr, Calumet, LaGrange, Ruth Lake, Chicago Highlands

The publics that everybody mentioned that I've played, like Cog #2, Big Run, Prairie Landing, Orchard Valley, Harborside, etc. are all under a 5, as are a bunch of other privates that I didn't mention.  I haven't played Onwentsia, Old Elm, Glen View Club.  I may have missed some, but I'm on my way out the door.

Terry:

Your post raised a few thoughts:

1.  Those that primarily play public golf in Chicago tend to value our experiences on the private courses a bit more, and thus probably have a slightly inflated ranking for those that we have been lucky enough to see.  

2.  That being said, the group of courses that you have listed as 5's is not very inspiring.  There are a number of public courses listed in this thread that I would play before just about any of the courses you note in that group.

3.  We've covered this ground before on similar threads, but I'll reiterate that Ravisloe does not compare favorably to the private courses in the area, and in its current iteration as a public venue on a public budget should not be compared to those courses.  As an accessible option, it provides a bit more architectural interest than the standard Chicago public course.  Yes, there are a few holes that could be described as "stinkers" (I'm not a big fan of the 5th, the 7th or the 18th).  But I think you overstate your disdain for the rest of the course.  Its a short course on a fairly small piece of land with some boundary constraints that influence play in parts (3 and 5 are the primary examples of this).  

As I mentioned above, the 8th is replete with strategic interest.  9 and 10 are a strong back-to-back par 4 combo, 9 having some great fairway bunkers and 10 being a very cool second shot hole.  11 is a challenge of a par 3, with a green that is harder to hit than appears from the tee.  I really liked 12 when the fairway bunker was a center line hazard, with the reduced options it is slightly less interesting, but still a challenge.  13 is a wonderful sweeping par 5 with great elevation changes.  14 provides a subtle test, as the hole asks to be approached from the left, but the right side of the fairway seems like the safe place to be.  15 is a very nice short hole, and 16 is one of the most interesting greens you'll find in Chicago.  17 presents a blind drive, but is admittedly fairly benign from there in.

For someone interested in playing a course to learn, this stretch at Ravisloe is worth the experience (assuming you're the kind of golfer than can stomach a few patches of poor conditioning here and there).  I'm not saying I'd want to play Ravisloe every day, but for someone that hasn't seen it before, its worth the trip (from 5 or 30 miles).

[George Freeman]

Sven - you don't like #5?  It's one of my favorites out there.  Quite a few options as to what you can play off the tee (under the right wind conditions you can get pretty close to the green with a high fade).

My other favorites at Rav would be #3 (really neat green) and #13.  I like 18 as well.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven - you don't like #5?  It's one of my favorites out there.  Quite a few options as to what you can play off the tee (under the right wind conditions you can get pretty close to the green with a high fade).

My other favorites at Rav would be #3 (really neat green) and #13.  I like 18 as well.

George:

On the 5th, its the most claustrophobic hole on the course.  I can't seem to get past the crowding issues when playing the hole.

I like the green on the 3rd a lot.  It places a premium on staying below the pin, and can create some interesting choices for those trying to get there in two.  I'm not a big fan of the boundary running up the right side of the hole.

18 is a hole that I feel I should like, but I just don't.  There's a narrow feeling to the hole that you haven't felt on the course since the 5th.

[Brian Hilko]

The o.b. fence on the right is fantastic. The hole is a short par 5. The boundry works because the hole becomes risk reward. You can hit hybrid, hybrid and still have a wedge for most players. I really like how the fence makes me pull hook driver if I am not committed to the shot. One thing I do not like is how modern design does not like using o.b. as a risk reward option on short holes like this.

[Sven Nilsen]

The o.b. fence on the right is fantastic. The hole is a short par 5. The boundry works because the hole becomes risk reward. You can hit hybrid, hybrid and still have a wedge for most players. I really like how the fence makes me pull hook driver if I am not committed to the shot. One thing I do not like is how modern design does not like using o.b. as a risk reward option on short holes like this.

Brian:

There's a great example of this on Talking Stick North.  That hole places a premium on approaching the green from as close to the boundary line as possible.  The hole at Ravisloe doesn't work the same way.  The way the fronting bunkers are aligned you're actually better off coming in from the left side of the fairway if you're going for it in two (this may not be a bad thing due to the proximity of the houses just over the fence).  If I remember correctly, I think there's a tree short right of the green that can block anything from the right edge.

I agree that the use of boundary lines, when well done, is an underused and valuable feature.  I don't think the fence on the 3rd plays into the strategy of the hole in any meaningful manner other than to provide the opportunity for a lost ball.

Open up the left side of the fairway, clear out some of the trees over there, add a center line hazard that requires a decision and protect the green from an attack from the left.  Now you're talking.

[Nigel Islam]

I was a little hesitant to start this thread, but this was some awesome stuff here. I LOVE GCA!
Thanks!

[Mark Smolens]

Got to play Ruth Lake over Memorial Day weekend. My first time there post-Arthur Hills' renovation. I'd have that one spot further up on Terry's list, tho I would agree with Bill and put Edgewood as a 6. . .

[cary lichtenstein]

Private:
Chicago Golf by a mile
Medinah III
Skokie
Butler

Public:
Cog Hill 4 by a mile