Classic Chicago/Wisconsin golf

[Jud_T]

Jack,

I was speaking in generalities.  OFCC is very good and I have yet to make it out to Flossmoor,  but I believe the Confidential Guide had exactly 1 Doak 8 in the metro area, which is inaccessible to most.  Personally, the only course in the area I'd tell someone to get on an airplane to see is Shoreacres.  Not exactly world class for such a world class city with so much golf history. 

[Howard Riefs]

... I have yet to make it out to Flossmoor....

How are your caddie services? Hope to see you 6/18 for the HHH.

[JR Potts]

Personally, the only course in the area I'd tell someone to get on an airplane to see is Shoreacres.  Not exactly world class for such a world class city with so much golf history. 

I think the fact that golf history has been made in Chicago says a lot more about the true merits of the golf quality than your hyperbole.

[Jud_T]

Personally, the only course in the area I'd tell someone to get on an airplane to see is Shoreacres.  Not exactly world class for such a world class city with so much golf history.  

I think the fact that golf history has been made in Chicago says a lot more about the true merits of the golf quality than your hyperbole.

Tournament history being the rubber stamp of quality GCA.  I think the guy on the night desk at Golf Digest just had to run out for more KY jelly and Kleenex.  I seem to have misplaced my golf rags; perhaps you can remind me how Midlothian, Onwentsia, Kemper Lakes, Sunset Ridge, Tam'O'Shantern, CC of Peoria, Calumet CC, Westmoreland, Glen Oak, Hinsdale and Homewood are ranked again?

[JR Potts]

No, I won't help you refresh your memory as I don't judge golf courses strictly on their rankings in magazines or popular GCA group-think.

It amazes me how out of touch with reality some are on here.  Reading this board all day long seemingly erodes creative and independent brain-cells when discussing golf.

[J_ Crisham]

Jack,

I was speaking in generalities.  OFCC is very good and I have yet to make it out to Flossmoor,  but I believe the Confidential Guide had exactly 1 Doak 8 in the metro area, which is inaccessible to most.  Personally, the only course in the area I'd tell someone to get on an airplane to see is Shoreacres.  Not exactly world class for such a world class city with so much golf history. 

Jud,    I would submit that Chicago is in the top 4 cities in the US for golf. In no particular order, Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, Butler Medinah, Skokie, OFCC N&S, Beverly, Flossmoor,Black Sheep would be in my first tier. The second tier is damn strong with Elgin CC, Old Elm, Exmoor, Edgewood Valley, Naperville, Onwentsia, Briarwood, North Shore, Lakeshore,Knollwood,Bob O Link, Conway Farms,Chicago Highlands,Kemper Lakes, and Butterfield. With the exception of Briarwood, I have played every course named above multiple times over the years. Other than NY and Philly I struggle to see what you find lacking in Chicago area golf. As far as the Doak ratings are concerned,I can speak to the fact that Beverly, is in my obviously biased opinion, quite under rated in his book-keep in mind we have had a significant reno and our recent bunker work has been well received. I look for Beverly to reappear in the GW Classic top 100 soon.Jud, I have no idea where you have played across the country but I find Chicago to be a pretty special place for golf.

[Jud_T]

Jack,

No question there is a lot of really good solid golf in Chicago (Lakeshore? Seriously?), and the civic pride from everyone is quite touching.  My point is that there is very little great golf.  The climate, terrain and soil is, for the most part, just not that great,  and most courses are either hemmed in on a tight piece of property and/or need a significant tree disease to open up originally intended playing corridors.  If you would tell a buddy to hop a plane to play Lake Shore well nuff said....

[J_ Crisham]

Jud,
       I didn't suggest someone hop on a plane to come and play Lakeshore, but having played it exactly last Monday it is still pretty fresh in my mind. It's a pretty damn good use of the available terrain,ravines etc. Prichard did a nice reno on it. Greens have some damn good internal contouring , good variety of par 3's. Par 5's were ok. A couple of very nicce short par 4's.Great conditioning. Hell of a clubhouse and lockerroom building-I would have no problem being a member there. Is it Merion? No. But it is still a nice golf course and club.

[Jud_T]

Jack,

Did you eat there?    I live on the course and chose not to join.  Remind me to relay some stories over drinks some time...

[C. Squier]

I can read Paul's course reviews all day. Someone please ask him about Park Ridge CC.

Nigel, I'm with Paul....don't drive that far to play a mediocre course (at best). Send me a PM, I'll do my best to host you guys at Olympia if I can make the day work.

[Carl Nichols]

Serious question -- where on the Doak scale would the courses at OFCC fall?  I've played Shoreacres, Medinah and Butler, but not OFCC (even though a very good friend belongs there).  Also haven't played Chicago.

[Phil McDade]

Serious question -- where on the Doak scale would the courses at OFCC fall?  I've played Shoreacres, Medinah and Butler, but not OFCC (even though a very good friend belongs there).  Also haven't played Chicago.

Carl:

My guess as to the GCA Chicago-land consensus (hopefully Shivas the straightshooter will weigh in):

OFCC South: Doak 6 (6. A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.)

OFCC North: Doak 7-1/2 (7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf. 8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.)

[Jud_T]

JR/Jack et al,

If I'm completely out of line by saying Chicago has a lot of good to really good golf but very little great golf perhaps you'd enlighten us as to which courses, aside from Chicago Golf, you'd give a Doak 8, 9 or 10 to?

[JR Potts]

The only course in the area I'd tell someone to get on an airplane to see is Shoreacres. 

I think 99.5% of the golfing public would be extraordinarily satisfied that they jumped on a plane to play Butler, Medinah, Shoreacres, Chicago Golf, Olympia Fields and/or Beverly. [I have not played Conway Farms, North Shore CC, Oneswentia, Skokie, Exmoor or Old Elm].

Couple a few of these places together or add in Flossmoor, Butterfield, Glen Oak, Knollwood, Black Sheep or Edgewood Valley, and you have a great golf trip.

I make this comment based on personal experiences - not Doak rankings in the confidential guide or Golfweek or Golf Digest rankings.

[Jud_T]

so a lot of good to really good golf in other words...and given that you don't have to jump on a plane, I recommend that you make an effort to come up and see Skokie....

[Paul OConnor]

Paul:

If you wouldn't mind, how would you rank the following Chicago area public courses (assuming you've played them):

Ravisloe
Harborside (either one)
Big Run
Bolingbrook
Prairie Landing
Cog #4
Cog #2
Ruffled Feathers
Orchard Valley
Highlands of Elgin
Thunderhawk
Pine Meadow
Glen Ellyn
Cantigny
The Glen Club
Shepherd's Crook

Second question, what features or values influence your ranking?

Third question, if Ravisloe was kept in "country club" conditions, would it rank higher?

If you offered to pay, and buy me lunch, I would play Cog #4, The Glen Club, and Pine Meadows.

[J_ Crisham]

Serious question -- where on the Doak scale would the courses at OFCC fall?  I've played Shoreacres, Medinah and Butler, but not OFCC (even though a very good friend belongs there).  Also haven't played Chicago.

OFCC North is a solid Doak 8. #3 and #14 are 2 world class holes. The par 5s are the only uninteresting holes in my opinion- they are good but not great. The par 4's at OFCC north are as good collectively as any of the 68 top 100 courses I've played. The South course is a hell of a good course as well- probably a Doak6.5. The #1,2,and6th are some of teh better par 4's you will see. If OFCC was on the North Shore it would be a US Open rota course. It's location is it's only downfall-clubhouse and failities are world class in addition to a great membership.

[Nigel Islam]

Thanks all for the input. It was very helpful.

[Sven Nilsen]

Paul:

If you wouldn't mind, how would you rank the following Chicago area public courses (assuming you've played them):

Ravisloe
Harborside (either one)
Big Run
Bolingbrook
Prairie Landing
Cog #4
Cog #2
Ruffled Feathers
Orchard Valley
Highlands of Elgin
Thunderhawk
Pine Meadow
Glen Ellyn
Cantigny
The Glen Club
Shepherd's Crook

Second question, what features or values influence your ranking?

Third question, if Ravisloe was kept in "country club" conditions, would it rank higher?

If you offered to pay, and buy me lunch, I would play Cog #4, The Glen Club, and Pine Meadows.

I guess that's the difference between the two of us, if you paid I'd play any of them (even without the free lunch). 

Can't fault you for having your own standards, but my guess is that you're a bit more critical than most of the folks on this board.  I get the life is too short argument, but I think we probably don't align on what we would consider a bad golf course.

Still interested in hearing exactly what is important to you in analyzing a golf course.  From the sounds of it, it comes down to conditioning, difficulty (including length) and the inclusion of interesting holes.  Of those three, I consider the first two overrated and the third the key factor. 

I certainly don't agree with you that Rav only has a couple of interesting holes.  Off the top of my head, the 2nd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th and 17th jump out as holes that are not only interesting, but provide a diverse range of shots and playing characteristics.  Its worth playing the course once just to experience the 8th, which is a great lesson using bunkers to challenge the ideal line to the green.

[Mark Johnson]

my rankings

Ravisloe   4
Harborside (either one) 5
Big Run 4
Bolingbrook 4
Prairie Landing 6.5
Cog #4 7
Cog #2 4
Ruffled Feathers 4
Orchard Valley 5
Highlands of Elgin 7
Thunderhawk 5
Pine Meadow 7.5
Glen Ellyn 4
Cantigny 6 (if its the championship 18)
The Glen Club 6  (though much lower for price/value)
Shepherd's Crook 4


I like pine meadow a little better than dubsdread-- in just as nice condition and more straightforward.   Dont sleep on Elgin Highlands, though it is a hike from the city.

If you are looking for more classic/ fun courses which i'd all call solid 5s,   I'd add a couple more to your list  (Wilmette-- PCraig's old stomping grounds) with Winnetka a little bit behind.   Also, Oak Brook is an interesting course which once hosted 7 holes in the western open when butler was flooded.

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

Shepherd's Crook a 4? It gets plenty of love here, particularly on conditioning/F&F grounds (one GCA regular said SC got conditioning and the maintenance meld better than almost any course he's played). I'm semi-bummed my kid didn't choose to go to college in Kenosha, as it would've been a quick hop down there to play SC. If you're in Kenosha or Waukegan (and maybe you're not!), wouldn't SC meet this definition (partial) of a Doak 5?

"A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game..."

I know folks whose views on it suggest even a 6: "A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you."

[Mark Smolens]

Pine Meadow in "just as nice condition" as Dubs? Since when? The last two years the new superintendent at Dubs has had that course in spectacular condition, greens firm and reasonably quick. I played Pine Meadow on Sunday. Although the greens do have grass on them this year (unlike last so at least they're), they were probably running 7 or 8 on the stimpmeter. Even Cog #2 is in much better condition that Pine Meadow (the new super has taken over that course as well).

I don't think the "championship" 18 is open yet -- they've re-done the 2nd hole (the par 5), flattening the tee shot and making the fwy less likely to kick your ball into the creek on the right -- but I'm not sure I'd put Prairie Landing above it. I'd also probably throw Bowes Creek onto the list if you don't mind a long hike from the City. Oak Grove has a number of nice holes (and one really stupid one) so it would get a mid-number ranking from me.

I personally think you have Harborside too high, but that's mostly because I think the way they treat customers sucks. Discouraging a guy from bringing a Sun Mountain cart by telling him to stop 40 yards short of the greens at the electric cart sign and move over to the path is the absolute height of lunacy, but that actually happened to me a year ago Easter Sunday (needless to say, we got our $$ back and left and wandered over to Water's Edge where they welcomed my cart and my cash).

I also agree with Phil M's assessment of Shepard's Crook. Especially on a raw, windy spring or fall day. Very linksy w/o the ocean.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Wilmette's a 5 and Pine Meadow a 7.5?!  Talk about grade inflation.  That would put Pine Meadow near the top 100 in the country.  A nice course, particularly given the competition,  but thats about it IMO.

[Bill Seitz]

Tee to green, Pine Meadow is always in really good shape, and they cleared out a lot of brush this year so it just looks better, though it doesn't really affect play much.  The problem is they never get the greens rolling fast enough.  They appear to be healthy enough to do so, but that's certainly not my area of expertise.  They have a great driving range, too.  It's where I always go to practice, even though it's a hike from the city.

I'd suggest that Oak Grove has at least two stupid holes.  The one with the tree in the middle, and the par five where you have to tee off with an iron.

Harborside is solid, but I find the links holes repetitive and boring.  And the two courses are nearly indistinguishable.  Personally, I think they would be better off swapping nine holes on each course, creating a links course and a lake course by using the front nine from each for a new course and the back nine from each as the other. 

[Jim Sherma]

my rankings

Ravisloe   4
Harborside (either one) 5
Big Run 4
Bolingbrook 4
Prairie Landing 6.5
Cog #4 7
Cog #2 4
Ruffled Feathers 4
Orchard Valley 5
Highlands of Elgin 7
Thunderhawk 5
Pine Meadow 7.5
Glen Ellyn 4
Cantigny 6 (if its the championship 18)
The Glen Club 6  (though much lower for price/value)
Shepherd's Crook 4



Wow - having only played Cog 2 out of this bunch that seems like a pretty deep collection of public golf all in all. Having grown up north of Philly I certainly can't name this many courses that are as good or better than Cog 2 off of the top of my head that were publics (the list seems to be growing though, e.g. LuLu). I liked Cog 2 and thought it was a good solid public course in good condition, not a bad combo and definitely worth a day out.