[Kalen Braley]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

[Jim Franklin]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

You're on. Let's play.

[Kalen Braley]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

You're on. Let's play.

Sounds good....I think you're due for a trip to the PNW.  We can go play a few rounds at Wine Valley!! 

[George Pazin]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

And how would you design a similar short game proposition? Let a scratch-ish golfer hit his recovery shot, and then move it 20 feet? 50 feet? further from the hole? The most incredibly thing about the best in the world is the ability to shoot a score while hitting only 50-60% of fairways and greens.

The closest thing I can think of is from my only summer of consistent play, 1998. I was playing 2-3 times a week - usually 1-2 18s, 1-2 9s. I was only hitting irons at the time, trying to learn how to play consistent golf. One round I happened to be playing with an older Irish gent, say 60-65 years old. I outdrove him with my 3 and 4 irons consistently (I didn't miss many fairways, neither did he), he outchipped and outputted me consistently. He shot mid 70s, I shot mid 90s. That extra shot around the green is brutal, absolutely gone irrevocably.

I haven't played with Jim, but I can tell you that he would unquestionably score better with my tee shot than I would with his - by a large margin, at that.

Having said all that, none of this has anything to do with the conditions of the article.

[Doug Siebert]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

I'm a little confused as to what this is supposed to prove?  That if you leave your drives 200 yards away in the rough or 30 yards in front of the women's tee on every damn hole, golf is hard?  I don't think anyone doubts that.  How about if after every shot you hit where the ball finishes on the green, I move the ball six feet further from the hole?  I'll bet that messes up your score way worse than 4-5 strokes.  What it would prove, I have no idea...

[Kalen Braley]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

I'm a little confused as to what this is supposed to prove?  That if you leave your drives 200 yards away in the rough or 30 yards in front of the women's tee on every damn hole, golf is hard?  I don't think anyone doubts that.  How about if after every shot you hit where the ball finishes on the green, I move the ball six feet further from the hole?  I'll bet that messes up your score way worse than 4-5 strokes.  What it would prove, I have no idea...

Doug,

I would take that challenge too....I rarely make birdies, (maybe one every other round) and I rarely 3 putt on courses I know.  Whether my putt is 10 feet or 16 feet or 26 feet on any given hole would have pretty much zero bearing on my scores. But hitting my approach from 200 yards in the rough or 150 from the fairway.....that makes all the difference in the world.  And that's the point of the study.

Hence as the original article stipulates, its really about the long game, not the short game if you want to shave strokes.

[Doug Siebert]

George,

My challenge stands to any player of any handicap.  I guarantee they will shoot 4-5 shots worse.

1)  Take all the clubs out of your bag that you can hit further than 220 yards.
2)  On half of the non par 3 holes, walk your ball out about 200 yards and drop it in the rough somewhere and play the rest of the hole from there.
3)  On 2 other non par 3 holes, drop your ball 30 yards in front of the womens tee and play the hole out from there.

By the same token, I'll be glad to drop the ball at 140-150 yards away from the green on all those long par 4s and par 5s and I guarantee I'll shoot 4-5 shots better.

....Or better yet, I'll play with someone who is long and fairly accurate off the tee and he can play my tee balls, and I'll play his.  Just by doing that one thing the net difference in scores between the two of us will likely be 8-10 strokes in total. 4-5 worse for him, 4-5 better for me

I'm a little confused as to what this is supposed to prove?  That if you leave your drives 200 yards away in the rough or 30 yards in front of the women's tee on every damn hole, golf is hard?  I don't think anyone doubts that.  How about if after every shot you hit where the ball finishes on the green, I move the ball six feet further from the hole?  I'll bet that messes up your score way worse than 4-5 strokes.  What it would prove, I have no idea...

Doug,

I would take that challenge too....I rarely make birdies, (maybe one every other round) and I rarely 3 putt on courses I know.  Whether my putt is 10 feet or 16 feet or 26 feet on any given hole would have pretty much zero bearing on my scores. But hitting my approach from 200 yards in the rough or 150 from the fairway.....that makes all the difference in the world.  And that's the point of the study.

Hence as the original article stipulates, its really about the long game, not the short game if you want to shave strokes.

You didn't read what I wrote, I'm talking about moving the ball six feet from the hole after EVERY shot that finishes on the green.  I think you'll find you three putt a lot of holes that way, with a few four putts thrown in for good measure.  I was being sort of tongue in cheek with that response

If you want me to move your ball on the green just once, in order to equalize it with the massive penalty of never playing a hole from less than 200 yards away in the rough, I think you need to be moved more like 15 feet away.  Maybe you still don't three putt, but you'll be lucky to have more than a single one putt during the round - makes it pretty difficult to get any up and downs so you better hit a lot of greens.

I'd take your challenge under those conditions.  But I think a better way to really test it would be to see what the effect of having a much BETTER long and short game than we really have.  So to simulate much better driving than one normally has, you could play a round where you start every hole in the fairway (in the center or location of your choosing) at the distance you hit a good solid drive, and play out from there.  To simulate a much better short game than one normally has, play another round where you play it normally, but once you reach 50 yards from the green you flip a coin, and if it comes up heads you can't take more than two more strokes, and if its tails you can't take more than three.

I think most people would be helped more by the simulated better short game than by the simulated Moe Norman driving.  And while I'm giving you much better than pro ability to hit perfect drives, I'm giving you mere good amateur level short game.  Pros would do better than getting up and down 50% of the time.

[Doug Siebert]

Oh, and the pro version of that would be to give them up and down EVERY time.  If you think about it, the best drivers are hitting the fairway 65-70% of time, and the best short game players get up and down 65-70% of the time.  So if you're going to give them 100% FIRs then I think giving them 100% up and downs would only be fair.  I think every pro would do better on the round they get the short game help, just like us amateurs.

[Kalen Braley]

Doug,

I think that would be an interesting experiment to try right here at my home course.  I've played it at least 50 times or so, so i have a pretty good history on what I normally shoot.  I could go out and play a Sunday afternoon round where instead of teeing off on every hole I take it 250-260 yards off the tee and put it in the fairway somewhere...and then play in from there. 

It would be interesting to see what I shot in those conditions over a few rounds.

As for my 1st shots that finish on the green, consider the following two scenarios:

1)  I hit the green in regulation which I usually do 4-6 times per round.  As I rarely end up within 20 feet of the pin as I'm a higher capper, at worst its about 30% longer from 20 feet to 26 feet.  For my average approach at 30-40 feet from the pin, adding 6 feet to the putting distance only makes the putts 20 to 12% longer...which is almost negligble.  I still two putt these and every now and then run one in for birdie.

2)  I miss the green and have a chip of 30 yards or less to the pin.  Sure every now and then I'll chip one in nice and close for a gimmie putt, but in total, I'd put my "up and down" % at maybe 10% tops.  So assuming I have 10 holes per round like this, I'm only losing 1 stroke because instead of that two foot tap in, I now have an 8 footer which I probably only make 20% of the time.  On all the rest of my chips, I have a 16 footer instead of a 10 footer, or a 21 footer instead of a 15 footer.  I still two putt those putts all day long, every day....so no increase in strokes there.

Now sure you could say that I need to improve my chipping game, and you would be right.  But consider this...the best players in the world can only manage to do this 55% of the time.  As a higher capper, I could work my butt off and maybe get to 25%...but that's still best case scenario.  So even if I improved from my current estimated 10% to 20%, that still only saves me on average 1 stroke per round. 

Hence my money saves I can improve far more quickly and effectively by improving my long game to have approaches from 140 yards in the fairway as opposed to 195 yards away in the rough....which I would estimate at 4-6 strokes per round.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  I read your last post....

So in fairness, I'll only play half of those balls from the fairway.  I'll take the other half out to the same distance, but I'll drop it in the rough.

But once again, I'll still take an 8 iron from the rough any day vs a 3 iron from fairway, much less the rough at that longer distance.

[Jason Topp]

Dave Pelz once wrote an analysis that the long game needs to be good enough to compete at the tour level but the short game determines who wins and who loses at that level.

Rotella opined that the long game determines how high you can score but the short game determines how low you do score. 

In my view the short game determines how much you squeeze out of your ability but the long game determines the range of possible scores. 

[Doug Siebert]

Kalen,

If you're as much of a "steady Eddie" type player as you post suggests, you may be the rare exception where improving the long game helps.  But consider that maybe the reason you don't get up and down very often is because of where you miss, and improving your decision making about where to aim and where to miss might improve your up and down performance more than actually practicing it.  I'm reminded of Tommy Armour's story about making a bet with another instructor that he could get a guy who never broke 90 around under 90, and told him what clubs to hit, where to aim, etc. (laying up instead of trying for the green from 200 yards out, that sort of thing) and got him around in 79.  I'm not suggesting you should actually DO that, unless you care enough about improving your score that hitting an 8 iron layup when you could reach the green with a 4 wouldn't bother you.  Just that you consider it...

Jason,

I definitely buy that Rotella line.  The days I shoot a truly awful number it is the long game that's responsible (usually due to penalty strokes from drives going where they don't belong)  The days I shoot a great score (like today's 72 that should have been a 70 if I hadn't doubled the 17th due to the damn comfort zone mental stuff) its not because I'm knocking down the flag, and certainly wasn't because my drives were all that wonderful.  Its more like my long game doesn't sabotage stuff, and my short game and putting step it up a level.

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