Dismal, PV, anf NGLA and carts

[jeffwarne]

Now that I've got your attention

Is it a chippng area,
If everyone putts when in the area?
In the past few years the prevailing popular theory is less rough and more short grass/chipping areas.
In my opinion agronomy has gotten ahead of skill with the ability to maintain and grow grass at incredibly low heights.
many "chipping areas" are stimping at 9 or 10, and it really makes no sense not to putt, the same as 20 years ago when on a green stimping at 9 you wouldn't chip.

While many think rough takes the skill out of the game, I would disagree and say that a skilled wedge player can evaluate the lie and the shot and hit a pretty predictable shot (not a flop) when needed if skilled enough,and thus separate themselves from the not so skilled.
but for now we can agree to disagree on this.

What I'm adocating is a slightly higher than fairway cut in some areas(most high end courses go the other way with a super tight hand mow)The slightly higher cut gives a player a chance to make decent contact and  REintroduces options (other than a putter) into the game.
We've recently introduced several such areas by mowing the rough closer and the anecdotal results I've watched have been quite good (people chipping successfully and being creative because they can make decent contact)

I'm not suggesting eliminating short tight  fairway areas around a green, but rather supplementing such areas with this height of cut in certain areas, and also keeping normal rough height pockets as well for variety.

Thoughts?

[Mark McKeever]

Great headline Jeff!  It got me to read the post!  I agree that it's nice to see chipping areas and mown edges, but not make them overdone on every hole.

Mark

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, The short grass gives the player options on what club, and type of shot, to hit. Rough, greenside, boils it all down to one type of shot. Not everyone putts from low mowed collars, but, they'd be wise to consider it. Most are not wise.

Besides, the short grass is there to allow your ball to bounce and roll. It's ultimate resting place is often determined by factors outside the control of the golfer. Juxtapose to hairy grass, where the result is within a few feet of where it strikes the ground.

[Jim Sherma]

Jeff - it all depends on how wet the mowed grass is kept. Firm links-like turf allows for more shots in my opinion because you know the leading edge of the club won't grab. When closely mowed chipping areas are kept moist and I have uncertainty as to how the club will interact with the ground is when I get very frustrated and feel like there is a lack of choices when compared to either reasonable rough or tight and firm/dry turf.

[jeffwarne]

Adam
Not suggesting hairy,just not tighter than fairway
I don't remember any chipping areas tighter than  fairways in the 70,s and 80s.
And you're right many seen't smart enough to putt.
Also,I'm not suggesing elimiinating short grass options and cool fast banks,just the occasional area where a chip makes sense

Jimyou're right,but many courses are wet to keep turf that short alive
I'm suggesting slightly higher height so more firmness is doable

The uk has it right at most courses,but I'm guessing the high end inland courses follow the US model more

[Sean_A]

Jeff

To me, the pic below is ideal.  The fairway runs into the green, is about the same firmness as the green and effectively can be played as green.  I wouldn't advocate raising the height of the grass at all.  I can understand for nearly all inland courses (on reasonable budgets) that there could be a "collar" height between fairway and green.  It is easier for the handicap player to slip clubs underneath the ball, but more difficult to judge how the ball will run with a putter or running chip shot.  There is room in the world for both, but I prefer fairway height if the cost is reasonable. What I never want to see is proper rough near a green or at the end of a natural run-off from a green, but I guess this is a lot to hope for.


A look at higher cut grass down natural run-offs.  This is fine by me.  The ball will still run, but the maintenance is not ott expensive.


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
Agreed with all of that except some rough is perfectly acceptable to me
Variety is the spice of life and a small dose of
all of the above is great
I would argue that an inland course with NO rough ever near a green was objectionable the same as a course with only rough was objectionable.
Except at Augusta (I reserve the right to contradict myself )

The great thing about links turf is that greens and fairways use to tend to be about the same speed and firmness,but that seems to be changing on the famous/well heeled courses(faster greens)

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Agreed with all of that except some rough is perfectly acceptable to me
Variety is the spice of life and a small dose of
all of the above is great
I would argue that an inland course with NO rough ever near a green was objectionable the same as a course with only rough was objectionable.
Except at Augusta (I reserve the right to contradict myself )

The great thing about links turf is that greens and fairways use to tend to be about the same speed and firmness,but that seems to be changing on the famous/well heeled courses(faster greens)

Jeff

I spose "near the green" should be defined better.  I hate to see proper rough say within 5 yards off the green especially when it cuts bunkers off.  I don't mind some rough a bit further away - especially if there is an obvious bail side.  In my pic you will notice that missing left beats missing right or long in the high rough all day long.  Still, I would like the high rough to be crispy and hit n' miss - nothing uniform or too lush.  Ideal rough - see below.


I am not that silly to think my ideals can always be met, but I think they should be the goals if options and fast play are truly important ideals.   

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, doesn't that stuff in the foreground of Sean's first pic seem to be what you are describing - enough to give you a tricky lie and some thinking to do but not the kind of junk you are doing an explosion with a 60 degree from?

not what I meant exactly but that stuff has its' place too
we're actually taking a few pockets of bluegrass/fescue rough and cutting them tight for rough, but not quite as tight as fairway (about the height of fairways 20-30 years ago) and maintaining them firm-you could putt from them but it wouldn't be your only choice
Let's call them chipping areas for dummies

I had a conversation with a GCAer about this yesterday and he called it "forward thinking"
I'd call it backward thinking , or a return to reasonable mowing heights  

[Greg Tallman]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

[Jeff Taylor]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

How does that take away options? Is one deprived of wedge play at Old Mac?

[Greg Tallman]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

How does that take away options? Is one deprived of wedge play at Old Mac?

[Jeff Taylor]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

How does that take away options? Is one deprived of wedge play at Old Mac?

"Inside 50 yards it took away options"

[Jason Thurman]

If there's an obvious correct play, it probably does take away options. I think that's Greg's point.

I do think, on most courses, that length of putt determines the appropriate play when greens are surrounded by short grass. I'd much rather pitch, chip, or swing from 30+ yards than putt. Inside that distance, lie plays a bigger factor.

In general, I think you probably have more options in types of shots with short grass but maybe more creativity available when judging lies in rough. A mix of both is probably best. Also, it's worth mentioning that maintaining short grass isn't all about creating extra options. It's also about making the course more playable for high handicappers (who prefer putting to chipping) while maintaining a challenge for better players (who are scared of tight lies). Greg, it makes sense that your friend with the good short game felt like one of his advantages was negated a bit at Old Mac.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

Greg,

At those distances, wouldn't a 4-iron or 6-iron, played like a putt be a viable option.

I like putting from off the green, but 20-50 yards makes me very uncomfortable with a putter, unless, I possessed Neil Regan's talent.

[Tom_Doak]

This was the criticism I heard on Old Mac from a good player with a good overall short game.

"Inside 50 yards it took away options, the smart play every time was a putter"

Perhaps 50 yards was an exaggeration on his part but the point was he never felt comfortable using anything other than a putter. Again good player with very good short game.

It's probably true that for someone who can putt very well, the smart play at Old Macdonald is nearly always a putter.  I rarely think of using something else there myself.

But that does NOT "take away options".  I have plenty of options, it's just that one option is usually the better one.  There are places when Pat Mucci's suggested shot [the hard chipped 4-iron into the bank to run up on the green, at #10 or #11 for example] is a better option.

If your expert witness wanted to say "there is not as much variety of recovery shots as on some other courses", I would perhaps agree with that, although it would be discounting all the time you wind up in a greenside bunker or have a bunker between your ball and the hole, each of which suggests a different (and difficult) shot.

[SL_Solow]

It really depends on the variety of shots possessed by the player and the nature of the shot.  Sometimes where there is significant slope, a more lofted shot that avoids the slope can be better than a putt provided that the player has the skill to pull it off.

[Greg Tallman]

Don't shoot the messenger guys, just passing along the comments of someone who does possess a solid variety of shots around the green but chooses the putter unless confronted with a scenario as suggested by Tom.