Boise

[Lance Rieber]

I love this town and can only think of a very very few spots that I would rather live but, is there any metro area this size that is more golf starved for great architecture than here?  I can't think of anywhere that could use a new course that utilizes the terrain and high desert.  We have two Harbottle designs that are the best at seeing something different. Can anyone else name a metro area with over 500,000 that has less in terms of quality golf?

[Garland Bayley]

You've got Egan and Macan, what more could you ask for?

[Lance Rieber]

Where is the Egan?

[Lance Rieber]

Never mind Garland, forgot about plantation.  I can see a couple of holes that may be from him still there.  I would love to see an old aerial from the beginning at plantation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lance,

Look at your IM's, I sent you a note

[Lance Rieber]

It's official, since no one said any different Boise Is the most golf deprived metro area in the us. That sucks.

[Sean Leary]

Lance,

There are a few others. New Orleans is one and it is quite a bit bigger than Boise....

[Daryl David]

Salt Lake City?  Also bigger, but deprived I think.

[Kalen Braley]

Salt Lake City?  Also bigger, but deprived I think.

I would completely disagree.  There are a handful of Doak 4s and 5s in the area for publics...and even a few 6s and maybe a 7 on the private side.

[Stephen Davis]

I would agree with you Kalen. I have always found the SLC area to have some gems.

Lance,
If you want a large Metropolitan area seriously lacking quality, accessible golf, then Los Angeles is your place!

[Kalen Braley]

All of these are in the SLC Metro Area:  I've played most of these and the ones I haven't I've toured then and seen them up close.

Glenwild   7
Salt Lake Country Club    6
Pete Dye - Promontory     6
Jack Nicklaus - Promontory   6
Thanksgiving Point   5
South Mountain   5
Soldier Hollow - Gold   5
Mt. Ogden   4
Hobble Creek   4
Bonneville   4

And this doesn't include Victory Ranch or Red Ledges which I suspect are each a 6 based on the photos I've seen of them.

[Stephen Davis]

All of these are in the SLC Metro Area:  I've played most of these and the ones I haven't I've toured then and seen them up close.

Glenwild   7
Salt Lake Country Club    6
Pete Dye - Promontory     6
Jack Nicklaus - Promontory   6
Thanksgiving Point   5
South Mountain   5
Soldier Hollow - Gold   5
Mt. Ogden   4
Hobble Creek   4
Bonneville   4

And this doesn't include Victory Ranch or Red Ledges which I suspect are each a 6 based on the photos I've seen of them.

That is quite the list! I was impressed with SLC golf and I haven't played anything above your #5

[Lance Rieber]

Stephen, I would count the privates in the LA area which blow us completley out of the water.  I am counting the privates in Boise and it still is in my eyes lacking. I think Salt Lake City and the area is fantastic for golf. I was really impressed when I was there.

I will say the TPC Louisiana is far and away better than anything here. I would love a Pete Dye design here.

I still think Boise is very high on the list.

[Stephen Davis]

Stephen, I would count the privates in the LA area which blow us completley out of the water.  I am counting the privates in Boise and it still is in my eyes lacking. I think Salt Lake City and the area is fantastic for golf. I was really impressed when I was there.

I will say the TPC Louisiana is far and away better than anything here. I would love a Pete Dye design here.

I still think Boise is very high on the list.

Sure there are a couple of amazing privates, but they might as well be a million miles away considering 99.999% of people in LA will never get the chance to play there.

[Andy Troeger]

All of these are in the SLC Metro Area:  I've played most of these and the ones I haven't I've toured then and seen them up close.

Glenwild   7
Salt Lake Country Club    6
Pete Dye - Promontory     6
Jack Nicklaus - Promontory   6
Thanksgiving Point   5
South Mountain   5
Soldier Hollow - Gold   5
Mt. Ogden   4
Hobble Creek   4
Bonneville   4

And this doesn't include Victory Ranch or Red Ledges which I suspect are each a 6 based on the photos I've seen of them.

Kalen,
Your scale here is really generous--the courses are pretty good and I think your order is generally appropriate from what I've seen.
Glenwild and Promontory Dye are 6's top, and I wouldn't argue with 5's.
Promontory Nicklaus and Red Ledges are 5's at best for me, and I wouldn't argue with 4's.

From what you showed me driving around, Thanksgiving Point "could" be a 5, but that seems generous for South Mountain.

[Andy Troeger]

Is there any decent golf in Memphis?

[Mark Saltzman]

All of these are in the SLC Metro Area:  I've played most of these and the ones I haven't I've toured then and seen them up close.

Glenwild   7
Salt Lake Country Club    6
Pete Dye - Promontory     6
Jack Nicklaus - Promontory   6
Thanksgiving Point   5
South Mountain   5
Soldier Hollow - Gold   5
Mt. Ogden   4
Hobble Creek   4
Bonneville   4

And this doesn't include Victory Ranch or Red Ledges which I suspect are each a 6 based on the photos I've seen of them.

Kalen,
Your scale here is really generous--the courses are pretty good and I think your order is generally appropriate from what I've seen.
Glenwild and Promontory Dye are 6's top, and I wouldn't argue with 5's.
Promontory Nicklaus and Red Ledges are 5's at best for me, and I wouldn't argue with 4's.

From what you showed me driving around, Thanksgiving Point "could" be a 5, but that seems generous for South Mountain.

Andy,

Matt Ward would disagree.

I think Promontory Dye is without a doubt the best course in the area.  I really don't think it is a 5.  I see it as top-100 modern, though obviously few agree with me.

Glenwild, Victory Ranch, Soldier Hollow and Salt Lake Country could all be in that 101-200 range (I think 2 of them actually are 101-200).  I guess that makes them 5s or 6s.

I did not think Nicklaus Promontory was all that interesting.  4
Thanksgiving Point I really didn't like.  3, no way it's a 5.
Willow Creek is a 3.
I can't think of anything else I played there.

[Kalen Braley]

Fair enough guys...

But I do have the benefit of having much more playings on these courses.  I've played Thanksgiving Point and South Mountain at least 10 times each in varying weather and wind conditions.  I personally think they are both about equal at 5s.  And they are both certainly as good as Soldier Hollow Gold, (which you must remember has a few mediocre holes on the front 9 and the horrific 9th hole).

I hope to play Red Ledges this year and possibly even Glenwild, (more of a longshot).

But when you take course like TP, SM, SHG, RL, GLenwild, SLCC....I don't see how any of them are anything short of this...

5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.


If not this for at least a few of them...

6. A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
It wouldn't be the first time Matt and I disagreed! I only wish I played Glenwild and Red Ledges before he left the site! I agree with you that Promontory's Dye Course is the best in the area. Glenwild is a close second. Red Ledges is beautiful, but just too hard like many of Nicklaus' other recent efforts. Its about the same quality as the Promontory Nicklaus course, although they are on pretty different pieces of ground.

Kalen,
If a 3 is average, then a 6 better be really good IMO. I think Promontory and Glenwild could reasonably make it. I thought South Mountain looked like fun, but I can't give it a score from what little we saw. I'm not convinced its a 5, but I'd give it a shot to find out!

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,
It wouldn't be the first time Matt and I disagreed! I only wish I played Glenwild and Red Ledges before he left the site! I agree with you that Promontory's Dye Course is the best in the area. Glenwild is a close second. Red Ledges is beautiful, but just too hard like many of Nicklaus' other recent efforts. Its about the same quality as the Promontory Nicklaus course, although they are on pretty different pieces of ground.

Kalen,
If a 3 is average, then a 6 better be really good IMO. I think Promontory and Glenwild could reasonably make it. I thought South Mountain looked like fun, but I can't give it a score from what little we saw. I'm not convinced its a 5, but I'd give it a shot to find out!

Andy,

And I think that's where members on this site sometimes loses perspectiv.  The Doak scale is talking about the average golf course world wide, not the "average" course that a guy like you or Mark plays.  With all the traveling you guys do, you're playing top notch courses week in and week out and I think it skews your judgement of what "average" really is.

You need to spend a few weeks playing nothing but joe blow munies and then when you play something decent again, it will start to come back to you!!   

I stand by all my numbers for the courses on this thread...

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,

You have to remember though that I've played every course in Albuquerque except the course on the military base that isn't accessible, plus most everything else within an hour. Some of them are terrible. I also played over 100 courses in Indiana, at least half of which were mediocre at best!

And even with that, the courses that I most consider to be "average" are ranked around #275 on my list out of 393 played--Erskine Park in South Bend and Albuquerque Country Club. They are better than a lot of courses, but I'm lucky with what I get to see.

I just think the point of the Doak scale is to create separation at the top, and to do that you get down to that 5 range pretty darn quick. I think most of us are guilty of giving scores higher than the authors intent, primarily because I remember him saying that on occasion!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean, respectfully New Orleans is not starved for anything more the Boise except High Desert,  proximity to mountains, proximity to national parks and white supremests. New Orleans is not great golf but it is better than 2 Harbottles.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Andy,

Its all good, I wasn't trying to bust your balls.  I know you've had lots of experience with the common man courses too....even if you haven't been playing very many of them lately! 

Any way you slice it thou, you can do far worse than the Salt Lake City area.....I'd take it over New Mexico even though Black Mesa and Pa-Koo are better than anything in Utah.  In terms of ordinary joe publics, I could even make an argument that its better than the bay area....

[Sean_A]

I find the 4-6 range on the Doak Scale the hardest to pin point.  7 isn't so bad because that is a course someone should think of as in the conversation for top 100 world - so top 200-250 for sure.  And who cares about 3s?  The 5-6 range which will include a lot of good and interesting courses get me tangled.  I tend to cheat a bit for 6s.  If a course is really good but not quite up to what I think of as a sure fire 7 than its a 6. Anything left over is mainly 5s with the rare 4.  I don't bother keeping track of lesser courses because with very few exceptions I wouldn't recommend them or want to play them.  So, if Kalen's grades are accurate, Boise isn't bad for golf.



Ciao

[Andy Troeger]

Hey Andy,

Its all good, I wasn't trying to bust your balls.  I know you've had lots of experience with the common man courses too....even if you haven't been playing very many of them lately! 

Any way you slice it thou, you can do far worse than the Salt Lake City area.....I'd take it over New Mexico even though Black Mesa and Pa-Koo are better than anything in Utah.  In terms of ordinary joe publics, I could even make an argument that its better than the bay area....

Uhh--you didn't see anything else in New Mexico!    Truthfully though, after those two I think there are plenty of courses in Utah better than anything else in NM. Although, I could be very happy skipping everything in Utah for Black Mesa and Paa-Ko personally.

Sean--I agree. Its pretty easy to see the very top, and the average courses aren't really that hard to spot. Its the mass in between that's hard to judge.