[Mike_Trenham]

I really think there are very very few clubs that divide the bill up at the end of the year.   They really do it at the start of the year.  This is simply a suburban legend.

[Jeff Shelman]

There's a club here that is down to only about 125 members, but they've been able to keep the doors open.

What's allowed them to keep their heads above water is that they just kill the banquet/wedding business. I heard they have almost 50 weddings booked from April through October. That certainly helps.

They've also been forced to be very lean in terms of staff. Very few FTEs with benefits. Most of the F&B staff is on-call/hourly.

[cary lichtenstein]

I know a guy that has joined a club 12 years ago and has never set foot in it and keeps paying dues. How dumb is that?

[David Lott]

David,
I guess I'm old fashioned - why would you belong to a golf club and not use the facilities?

Some of those members may be approaching the 14 club limit.

[Mark Steffey]

Some of those members may be approaching the 14 club limit.

is that using david fay's?  or another usga guys quote? (one of my favorites)

[David Lott]

Some of those members may be approaching the 14 club limit.

is that using david fay's?  or another usga guys quote? (one of my favorites)

It's a very old joke. I know, because I'm an old guy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

The number of rounds "played" is irrelevant.

The number of members is relevant, as are the operating and capital budgets relative to the number of members.

[John Kavanaugh]

At a good club the members are like your family, you don't drop out just because you may not play very often. You continue to support the club so other people may also find the joy you once had. I know many members where I play that pay dues for what to you may see for reasons of folly. I love those guys.

If I could I would be a member of every club that would have me. It's more fun than being a stranger.

When you grow up you shouldn't have to ask permission to go out and play.

[Sean_A]

At a good club the members are like your family, you don't drop out just because you may not play very often. You continue to support the club so other people may also find the joy you once had. I know many members where I play that pay dues for what to you may see for reasons of folly. I love those guys.

If I could I would be a member of every club that would have me. It's more fun than being a stranger.

When you grow up you shouldn't have to ask permission to go out and play.

But if you rarely turn up, you are a stranger unless it was a club heavily used in prior years.

Ciao

[Carl Rogers]

This thread is a corollary to the Ballyneal financial problems thread.  I would just assume that an individual or small group that would go develop a course in remote Colorado would essentially have unlimited (or just about) resources even to contemplate just a venture.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick  =  you're absolutely correct.  But I propose that the number of people paying for memberships they don't use will drop significantly going forward.  I'd go so far to say it's a cultural leftover from a bygone era.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick  =  you're absolutely correct.  But I propose that the number of people paying for memberships they don't use will drop significantly going forward.  I'd go so far to say it's a cultural leftover from a bygone era.

Dan,

There will always be members who under-utilize the club.

That number may be shrinking because I think those that belong to multiple clubs will reduce the number of those clubs.

As Donald Ross and real estate gurus have stated, "location, location, location"

Sometimes utilization is a function of location.

Sand Hills might be an interesting study.

Conversely, do the number of rounds at Deepdale signify anything, one way or the other ?

[Mark Johnson]

some of it though is that people value uncrowded golf courses and are willing to pay for it.

I can name at least 5 courses in greater minneapolis that get between 10-15 groups on a busy day, yet the membership is willing to pay for it.

I believe this is a very American thing-- people willing to pay for exclusivity.

[Patrick_Mucci]

some of it though is that people value uncrowded golf courses and are willing to pay for it.

I can name at least 5 courses in greater minneapolis that get between 10-15 groups on a busy day, yet the membership is willing to pay for it.

I believe this is a very American thing-- people willing to pay for exclusivity.

Mark,

That's an interesting comment, one in line with my comment about Deepdale.

At another club, one that's very well positioned for the future, the concern is just the opposite.

They've been very successful in attracting new members and are now concerned that the course will become too crowded and that rounds will take longer and longer to play.

There's something to be said for a club without starting times, one where you can show up and tee off at your leisure.
And, you're right, people are willing to pay for that convenience/luxury.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mountain Lake gets less than 10,000 rounds a year and is a healthy club. It will continue to be a swell imho.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

At a good club the members are like your family, you don't drop out just because you may not play very often. You continue to support the club so other people may also find the joy you once had. I know many members where I play that pay dues for what to you may see for reasons of folly. I love those guys.

If I could I would be a member of every club that would have me. It's more fun than being a stranger.

When you grow up you shouldn't have to ask permission to go out and play.

John, as usual you put into words things that some of us are thinking about but can't quite put our fingers on. 

I am still a member at a club that i use very infrequently.  Life and business has gotten more busy and while I still love it I don't hang out there every weekend like it was my home like I used to.  However if I can swing it (and if my wife doesn't put the kibosh on this deal) I will be a member until the day I die.  I love this place, I love the people, and I see some younger guys that are out there all the time learning to love the game at a special place like I used to.  And i feel some loyalty to the "Family" that I have been a part of for 15 years.   I was telling someone last week that although my nickname out there is still "Newboy" (sometime I will explain more about that) I am now starting to become one of the "old-timers" out there that I used to look up to when I first joined. 

Now I am a member of the in town club a mile from my house because of some family pressures, and like tomorrow am when I will go to that club for a quick round in the morning because of the ease of getting over there and home in just a few minutes.  So now if I stop to figure out my cost per round at my real love it would be scary, so I just don't think about it, I just do it.  There are some things in life and golf that if you can do it you just have to do it.  Now granted I am an engineer and not accountant so I find it easy to not count the beans per round at this club.  As an engineer I figure "if it aint broke don't fix it."

I am not a .01% er by any means, but I want to be one.  And even though I probably will never be one, in this one part of life that I enjoy so much I hope to live like one...

There are a couple of other clubs I hope to be a member of someday, places where you just know you feel like family the first time you are there.  Maybe someday I will be fortunate enough to be a member of those as well.  I sure hope so, and I won't count the beans...

[Jim Sherma]

some of it though is that people value uncrowded golf courses and are willing to pay for it.

I can name at least 5 courses in greater minneapolis that get between 10-15 groups on a busy day, yet the membership is willing to pay for it.

I believe this is a very American thing-- people willing to pay for exclusivity.

Exclusivity and willingness/ability to pay are very much how these courses survive. A good friend of mine is the top marketer of a company that sells very expensive men's shirts, $350+. I asked him how business was after the whole melt down and he laughed and said, "the guys paying $500 for a shirt will always pay $500 for a shirt. The guys that pay $20 for a shirt will always pay $20. It's the guys that pay $100 for a little nicer shirt when times are good that get killed when times are bad".

I think the clubs with real money are impervious to normal "business model" concerns and it's really the clubs where players are concerned with things such as "cost per round" that are at risk as disposable income is squeezed. They are the ones buying-up into the club.

[Mike Hendren]

This thread is a corollary to the Ballyneal financial problems thread.  I would just assume that an individual or small group that would go develop a course in remote Colorado would essentially have unlimited (or just about) resources even to contemplate just a venture.

Carl, the best source of capital is OPM - Other People's Money.  Leverage makes the world go 'round. 

Notwithstanding the recent recession and de-valuation of real estate, the most pressing issue for most investors/developers is "how little equity will I be required to contribute?"

They believe:
1)  A dollar borrowered is a dollar gained.
2)  A dollar refinanced is a dollar saved.
3)  A dollar repaid is gone forever.

Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but the best thing a club can be is debt-free.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I really think there are very very few clubs that divide the bill up at the end of the year.   They really do it at the start of the year.  This is simply a suburban legend.

Mike Trenham,

Not really.

Most clubs divide the shortfall up at the end of the year in the form of an assessment.

In addition, they typically adjust their dues structure for the coming year to factor in the previous year's operating shortfall.

Clubs that adopt a pay as you go philosophy seem to do far better than clubs that don't.

I've always been an advocate of "pay as you go"

Mike Hendren,

Agreed

[TEPaul]

"But I propose that the number of people paying for memberships they don't use will drop significantly going forward.  I'd go so far to say it's a cultural leftover from a bygone era."


Dan:

You may be right about that.

The most lightly used golf club of my experience was The Links in Long Island. The golf club pretty much always had a member cap on it of 100. The members of it belonged to multiple clubs and basically used it around Sunday lunch which was always something like a little house party. There was never any problem with it financially but it became so lightly used the only people playing it were cops and firemen so they sold it about twenty years ago.

Of course the most lightly used of all was the Rockefeller's Pocantico Hills course that was a reversible William Flynn. Sadly that too is at this very time in the process of being put to sleep. We went up there the other day to speak with Rockefeller Brothers Foundation on how to preserve vestiges of it for historical reasons. Pocantico Hills itself has been deeded over the the National Lands Trust and leased back to the Rockefeller Foundation.

Again, I think you're right that that kind of thing will probably become a rare vestige of a bygone age and a bygone culture. I just don't think there are many people left today who think like those people back then who had golf courses and clubs like that.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat you are correct on the number of members and pay as you go and not number of rounds played.

[Mike_Trenham]

I really think there are very very few clubs that divide the bill up at the end of the year.   They really do it at the start of the year.  This is simply a suburban legend.

Mike Trenham,

Not really.

Most clubs divide the shortfall up at the end of the year in the form of an assessment.

In addition, they typically adjust their dues structure for the coming year to factor in the previous year's operating shortfall.

Pat read my post I said they do it at the start of the year, rich folks don't readily open themselves to risks of unknown payouts that is why they are rich, and they are more than okay if the club runs a nice surplus and the experience is superior.  Nobody openly agrees to be a victim or have a surprise payout, that is for suckers.  Yes assessments happen but they are from poor budgeting usually.

Clubs that adopt a pay as you go philosophy seem to do far better than clubs that don't.

I've always been an advocate of "pay as you go"

Mike Hendren,

Agreed

[Mike Sweeney]

At a good club the members are like your family, you don't drop out just because you may not play very often. You continue to support the club so other people may also find the joy you once had. I know many members where I play that pay dues for what to you may see for reasons of folly. I love those guys.

If I could I would be a member of every club that would have me. It's more fun than being a stranger.

When you grow up you shouldn't have to ask permission to go out and play.

John, as usual you put into words things that some of us are thinking about but can't quite put our fingers on. 

I am still a member at a club that i use very infrequently.  Life and business has gotten more busy and while I still love it I don't hang out there every weekend like it was my home like I used to.  However if I can swing it (and if my wife doesn't put the kibosh on this deal) I will be a member until the day I die.  I love this place, I love the people, and I see some younger guys that are out there all the time learning to love the game at a special place like I used to.  And i feel some loyalty to the "Family" that I have been a part of for 15 years.   I was telling someone last week that although my nickname out there is still "Newboy" (sometime I will explain more about that) I am now starting to become one of the "old-timers" out there that I used to look up to when I first joined. 

Now I am a member of the in town club a mile from my house because of some family pressures, and like tomorrow am when I will go to that club for a quick round in the morning because of the ease of getting over there and home in just a few minutes.  So now if I stop to figure out my cost per round at my real love it would be scary, so I just don't think about it, I just do it.  There are some things in life and golf that if you can do it you just have to do it.  Now granted I am an engineer and not accountant so I find it easy to not count the beans per round at this club.  As an engineer I figure "if it aint broke don't fix it."

I am not a .01% er by any means, but I want to be one.  And even though I probably will never be one, in this one part of life that I enjoy so much I hope to live like one...

There are a couple of other clubs I hope to be a member of someday, places where you just know you feel like family the first time you are there.  Maybe someday I will be fortunate enough to be a member of those as well.  I sure hope so, and I won't count the beans...

Turboe,

Always good to see you posting and your love for golf (and life) comes through on every post.

My goodness, I was busy yesterday but John Kavanaugh must be a proud father today.  A rater who is a member of a not needed golf club is like pouring asphalt in 100 F weather to John!

[Dan Byrnes]

So much has to do with the demographics in the area.  There are very good golf courses in some area on the verge of or have already failed.  It's the local demographics at play. There are clubs in other areas that money isn't an object now or likey in the future.  These clubs are like the $500 shirt, it just done without regard to price and value received.

I played Quaker Ridge with a guy who hadn't been there in several years for a round of golf.  He was the CEO of a financial business and had joined because his father in law was a member.   Never used it didn't care one way or another.  The cost didn't even register compared to other expenses. Those type of folks just pay.

In regards to the Sand Hills, Ballyneal etal. It really comes down to how many of ese can there be. The world of multi club guys is shrinking not growing bst I can tell.  While there is always a place that can be supported by don't care about cost and value folks it's not clear there is enough of those types for two, three or ten similar clubs.  Sand Hills is solid, not sure about the others.  There were a lot of paper wealth that supported these clubs and over the past few years the paper wealth has disappeared, including a fair bit of mine.

Dan

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Turboe,

Always good to see you posting and your love for golf (and life) comes through on every post.

My goodness, I was busy yesterday but John Kavanaugh must be a proud father today.   A rater who is a member of a not needed golf club is like pouring asphalt in 100 F weather to John!

LOL...

Mike, Funny it was you of all people that responded to my post, because I was picturing you when I wrote part of that post.  One of the places that I hope someday I am fortunate enough to be a member of is a place that you either were (or maybe still are) a member of.  I have been lucky enough to have visited over 1500 different places in my life, and while I was only there one time, I could tell right away that it was a place I would love, and hopefully fit right in...

Obviously for those of us on here the course and its architecture plays a role or we wouldn't be on here, but the feel of the place, and the people are of equal or more importance.

I don't think I will ever be in a position to exceed the 14 club rule, but I do hope to add a value priced gem or two as I grow older in this game.  Its hard to put a price on being able to gather with good people.


BTW Mike, I think your "M" logo in your avatar was just a little too dark of blue, and its was missing the other important words above and below it....

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