White Manor: an updated photo tour

[Joe Bausch]

My previous tour of this fine course is buried within another thread.  I think this deserves it own, with hole diagrams included:

Here is the routing on a rolling property with nice elevation changes, plenty of trees (!), a couple of ponds and streams:



#1.  Right out of the gate at WM you get a downhill par 4 with a very difficult green fronted by a small stream.  If you are looking for a gimme hole to start out, well, you are not getting it here!













#2.  From that tough opener you go to the No. 1 handicap hole, a 431 yard par 4.













#3.  From the regular tees, this is a longish par 3 (214), and from the tips pretty beastie (255 yards).











#4.  Now you get an uphill par 4 (415 yards) with cross bunkers making you take a side on the drive, with the right side wider but requiring a 2nd shot over green side bunkers.













#5.  A nicely rolling dogleg left par 4 (424 yards).















#6.  A par 5 (555 yards) that I just was fascinating by on my only time on the course; it is fairly flat most of the way, then goes downhill to a green that runs away; a ground shot can be utilized here nicely.

















#7.  A nice little short par 4 (335 yards); that is the 17th green over the pond.













#8.  Par 3 (165 yards).











#9. An uphill par 4 (436 yards) with a very challenging two-tiered green.













#10.  I'm not sure which downhill par 4 is harder, this one or #1.











#11. Next up is a par 5 reachable in two with a good tee ball.













#12.  Next up is a 192 yard par 3.











#13. Now the No. 2 handicap hole, a very tough dogleg-right par 4 with H2O in play off the drive and a beautifully contoured green.













#14. A 217 yard par 3.









#15.  A slightly uphill short par 4 (330 yards).













#16. A much longer par 4 (446 yards).













#17. A downhill par 5 off the tee, then it moves left at the end with water in play.













#18. WM finishes with a climbing all the way par 4 (418 yards).











I hope you enjoyed the tour.  I really liked the greens and the variety of shots you could play from just off them.

[Alex Lagowitz]

the course has some great bunkering and native grasses
who is the designer?

[Kris Shreiner]

Alex,

Bobby Weed did the re-design a few years back. He and his team did a wonderful job as Joe's fine photos capture.

Cheers,
Kris

[Sean_A]

Joe

Thanks a ton for the review - the course really appeals to me.  Why is it so much off the radar in Philly? 

Ciao

[Mike_Trenham]

Joe

Thanks a ton for the review - the course really appeals to me.  Why is it so much off the radar in Philly? 

Ciao

Things are very established here in Philadelphia.  It is hard to change thinking.  Most people still think it is a Gordon design not Weed. 

Top modern era courses in the area

White Mannor
Stonewall Old and North
French Creek
Hidden Creek
Glen Miils
Applebrook
Wilmington
Bidderman

None of these are perfect, White Mannor is pretty difficult without being penal and probably the top of the heap of these courses in my opinion.  In terms of # of plays White Manor is in my top 10 yet I am often not comfortable over the ball there as the next shot is in my mind.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Mike,
A bit shocked at the choice of French Creek. Those two quirky pars fours back to back always influence the way I think about the course.

Ed

[Dan Herrmann]

Ed,
They become pretty routine holes once you play them a couple times.  I think they're a lot of fun and their placement as #14 & #15 is perfect for match play.

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike,
A bit shocked at the choice of French Creek. Those two quirky pars fours back to back always influence the way I think about the course.

Ed

 Ed, For those that favor French Creek it is these holes and their quirk that lifts them and for those that don't favor it it is these holes (and 3 forced carry shots).  For me with only one play Hidden Creek which felt repetitive and lacking controversy is harder to consider great.

[George Freeman]

Course looks like a lot of fun!

Are the greens as good as they look!?

[Craig_Rokke]

Thanks for sharing, Joe. I've had the pleasure of two plays there, and it is a very good course. Don't think many renovation/remodel projects have elevated a course as much as theirs did. still, it does fly under the radar a bit.

[Derek Dirksen]

Great photos.  First thought is how well the bunkering fits in.   Not only style but locations..  Looks fantastic!

[James Bennett]

Joe

thanks for the tour - I saw White Manor 6 years ago with Jason M.  I still remember many holes, including 4, 11,12,13 and 15. 

I recall thinking on 13 (a really tough hole) that it would be possible with the removal of a couple of trees, to be able to see the green when you were on the tee.  I reckon that would be pretty cool - seeing the green but having to play away from it, have the view disappear for 150 to 200 yards or so, and then see it again across the water.

Good to see White manor in good nick.

James B

[Mark McKeever]

Course looks like a lot of fun!

Are the greens as good as they look!?

George,

Yes, the greens are as good as they look...very very fun putting surfaces.  I had the pleasure of playing White Manor this weekend with one of the top tier GAP players and it was a blast. On a number of greens we found ourselves finishing the hole, then putting alignment stick in the green on some of the "Sunday pins" and continuing to hit more chips and putts.  There are TONS of shot options around the greens and I found myself thinking on many occasions "I could use 14 different clubs to hit this shot".  My favorite greens on the course are the semi-biarritz 10th and the 13th.  If we werent trying to finish to catch the final round at Olympic, we probably would have been out there on the course trying shots until dark.

The course stretches out nicely above 7000 yards with a lot of the back tees giving you a different look and most likely a different strategy playing the hole.  Brian put it very nicely, you try to "hold on" early in the round because of the difficulty of holes 1-5, then look to score on holes 6-12, by then the player can determine how aggressive they want to play the risk reward style finish. 

I was reminded on many occasions of Glen Mills.  Weed did a great job at both courses, but they are different in their own ways.  The creek valley was used much better at White Manor IMO, although the shape/slopes of the property is much different I suppose.  There were a few "infinty" greens at WM that were really cool features and they remind me how wild the 10th at Schuylkill could be if they went for a similar approach.

The staff and membership were all great (A lot of Villanovans it seemed too) and they take a lot of pride in their golf course which shows.

If anyone wants to hear me ramble more, shoot me a PM!

Mark

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - thanks much for a wonderful tour, and gents for your comments. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but until someone mentioned in on the thread, i had no idea that what I was looking at was a modern course by Bobby Weed; I thought from the pictures that it was a golden age hidden gem by Donald Ross!! Wow - my kind of course

Thanks again Giuseppe Bauschino

[Mark McKeever]

Joe - thanks much for a wonderful tour, and gents for your comments. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but until someone mentioned in on the thread, i had no idea that what I was looking at was a modern course by Bobby Weed; I thought from the pictures that it was a golden age hidden gem by Donald Ross!! Wow - my kind of course

Thanks again Giuseppe Bauschino

There were a number of times on the course that I thought "this looks Ross'ish" and I think I even mentioned that to my host.  It really is a great golf course.

Mark

[Luke Eipper]

A lovely golf course tour. Thanks  

From my inspection of the course guide and the photos it appeared as if the designer(s) had really adhered to the strategic school of thinking. Is that impression a player gets from playing the course?

Also, while I note the photos included showed the course in what I can imagine was late fall, is the course quite tight off the tee when in the peak of summer and the trees are in full bloom? I can only suspect holes like 11 might feel a tad clastraphobic to a player.

[Mark McKeever]

Luke,

I never felt like the trees tightened any of the holes really.  Hole 11 is sort of like playing in an hourglass because it narrows down where your second shot is in the air.  It's visually intimidating, but does not play that narrow.  All of the playing corridors were generous I thought.

Mark

[Brian Colbert]

I'm proud to call this my home club. A great golf course that I enjoy playing every time I tee it up.

Luke- one of the things you will notice about WM when we have you out there someday is how wide the fairways are. There aren't many spots save for the lower holes on the back 9 (basically 11-13) where you have significant tree trouble. Many of our other fairways are lined with trees but it takes a shot well off-line to have any issues.

A couple other things I'd like to point out about the course:

As you can see by some of the pictures, the course was designed to play firm and fast. There are many options around the greens as Mark mentioned earlier and in some holes you can see a little bit of Huntingdon Valley.

Something which I have come to take for granted in my 200+ rounds there but Mark noticed right away is how many bunkers appear to be greenside and in fact, aren't. Off the top of my head there is one on 4, 7, 14, 15, 16, and a couple other holes where I think it was attempted but didn't necessarily pan out.

Bobby Weed did a great job of fitting the greens to the holes on the course, with the exception of hole number 13. Many of the holes requiring a wedge or short iron have greens that it is hard to keep it close to the flag (6 and 10 are the first that come to mind) while holes such as the 255 yard par 3 3rd hole have the more receptive greens on the course.

It is a great course and if you are given the opportunity to play it I suggest you take it. If you're sincerely interested in playing you are welcome to message me to try and set something up.

[Jason Mandel]

A lovely golf course tour. Thanks  

From my inspection of the course guide and the photos it appeared as if the designer(s) had really adhered to the strategic school of thinking. Is that impression a player gets from playing the course?

Also, while I note the photos included showed the course in what I can imagine was late fall, is the course quite tight off the tee when in the peak of summer and the trees are in full bloom? I can only suspect holes like 11 might feel a tad clastraphobic to a player.

Luke,

As Brian mentioned, the fairways are pretty wide for the most part. When we re-did the course in 2003 we took out over a 1000 trees. Before the redo the course was definitely claustrophobic. It is no where near that today. 11 is actually one of the wider fairways on the course and trees are rarely an issue save for the 2nd shot if your drive is up the left side.

13 is perhaps the only claustrophobic drive on the course.


Brian,

Not sure how much you know about the "old" course but next time we talk I can definitely give you a better sense of what "used to be". It's really amazing what Bobby did given that he didn't change the routing much but literally changed everything else.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Great photo tour Joe. You really do the course justice which can be hard to do in pictures. I really enjoy WM and now that it is a few years old it is really maturing and coming into it's own nicely.  Don Brown has done a great job!  And the greens are really good.

To me the place feels modern retro.  You know you are playing a modern course but there are so many situations that feel like your on an older course.  Maybe it's the number of ground game options?  I think Boddy Weed did a really good job.

[TEPaul]

I just can't tell you how much Bobby Weed improved that 4th hole. It may be the greatest improvement I've ever known on any single hole from the way it was to the way it is. It's interesting how and why Weed could even do what he did with that hole. Gordon, like his boss and mentor William Flynn before him, used a certain amount of what's known as "triangulation" in his routings (probably the best and most comprehensive Flynn use of triangulation is Shinnecock). That requires a bit more land but it is so interesting how it can separate holes and allow them to dogleg in different directions.

There never was that much triangulation in the Gordon White Manor routing but Weed found it to the left of #4, and utilized it brilliantly.

By the way, I live less than half a mile from White Manor and I heard recently from a former member that the club is offering some really interesting membership deals at this time. Anyone around here interested in a good private club with a really fine golf course (and now really good practice facilities) and food should look into it. You can call them or call me, and I will get you in, but if you call me to get you in, you're gonna owe me a finder's fee which is always a case of really nice red wine! However, if it turns out after a time the club thinks you're a jerk, I do not accept any responsibility for that. If you don't believe me when I tell you I accept no responsibility, just ask D. Moriarty about how I never take responsibility for ANYTHING!  

You understand all that, don't you Jason? By the way, when you and the club hold membership meetings in which you interview and vet potential members------if you want to hold those meetings over here at Featherfield farm in the Barn/Office, you are more than welcome to it! Of course I will expect a really nice case of red wine for Christmas but in the broad scheme of things, that's small potahtoes!

[Jason Topp]

Both of the short par fours look exceptional.

[Chris Roselle]

I'm proud to call this my home club. A great golf course that I enjoy playing every time I tee it up.

Luke- one of the things you will notice about WM when we have you out there someday is how wide the fairways are. There aren't many spots save for the lower holes on the back 9 (basically 11-13) where you have significant tree trouble. Many of our other fairways are lined with trees but it takes a shot well off-line to have any issues.

A couple other things I'd like to point out about the course:

As you can see by some of the pictures, the course was designed to play firm and fast. There are many options around the greens as Mark mentioned earlier and in some holes you can see a little bit of Huntingdon Valley.

Something which I have come to take for granted in my 200+ rounds there but Mark noticed right away is how many bunkers appear to be greenside and in fact, aren't. Off the top of my head there is one on 4, 7, 14, 15, 16, and a couple other holes where I think it was attempted but didn't necessarily pan out.

Bobby Weed did a great job of fitting the greens to the holes on the course, with the exception of hole number 13. Many of the holes requiring a wedge or short iron have greens that it is hard to keep it close to the flag (6 and 10 are the first that come to mind) while holes such as the 255 yard par 3 3rd hole have the more receptive greens on the course.

It is a great course and if you are given the opportunity to play it I suggest you take it. If you're sincerely interested in playing you are welcome to message me to try and set something up.

I had no idea that our 112th Golf Association of Philadelphia Amateur Champion was a GCA member...

[Mark McKeever]

A new addition Chris!

Mark

[Carson Pilcher]

I am really intrigued by this course.  It has stuck in my head, and I cannot shake it.  Hopefully, I will make it there one day.