Question about Royal County Down scorecard - "slope"

[Jeff_Lewis]

Just back from frigid Ireland and a wonderful day at County Down. Oddly, I noticed "slope" ratings on their scorecard for each set of tees.  Are these intended for use by US players for posting scores? Has anybody seen slope ratings on other GBI courses?

[Dale Jackson]

Jeff, some of the more famous courses in the UK have been rated using the USGA slope system.  You are exactly right, it has been done so that players from countries using that system, under licence from the USGA, can enter those scores for handicap purposes.

[Pete_Pittock]

Jeff, some of the more famous courses in the UK have been rated using the USGA slope system.  You are exactly right, it has been done so that players from countries using that system, under licence from the USGA, can enter those scores for handicap purposes.

Must have been a great gig for those seasoned course raters who made the trip

[Jason Topp]

While I am generally a fan of the slope system and think it comes out about right in most cases, it seems silly to me to assign a slope on a windy links course. 

On a calm day, the slope could be 100 and on a real windy day it could be 156.  A guy with a 180 yard slice has no chance in a 40 mph wind.  Assigning a slope within that range is pretty random. 

[David_Tepper]

Jeff Lewis -

While not commonplace, a significant number of GB&I courses do have USGA slope ratings.

Jason Topp -

You are right about windy/rainy/cold conditions effecting scoring on links courses that can render conventional course ratings/slopes meaningless. However, after a competition is completed, it is common for the the equivalent of the course rating/slope (SSI - standard scratch index) to be adjusted based on how the field performed overall based on the conditions. If a course has an SSI of 71, but the scores come in much higher than "normal" based on adverse playing conditions, the SSI for that day might be 73 or 74 and handicaps would be calculated off that base index rather than the normal base index of 71.

DT     
 

[Carl Johnson]

Curious to know what the slope ratings are.  I played RCD last year, but did not notice the ratings.  I'd say that anything less than slope 180 from the forward tees is bogus.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Asked the same question at a USGA seminar. The  numbers are good, saw them at Kingsbarn too.

Wow would that be fun to rate in some weather.

[jeffwarne]

 Really?.......

[Jason Topp]

David:

I agree that CSS helps some but it does not exist under the USGA system.  I also think it falls short in windy conditions because the impact of wind on a scratch golfer is very different than the impact on a 20 handicap - exactly the issue slope is designed to address.



I don't know if these are official but they were posted by Dean Knuth on his pope of slope blog  http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/courseratings.html

Brora      69.5   117   6110
Elie       69.9    112    6273
Royal Dornoch       72.8    138    6581
Royal Troon       73.2    134    6641
St. Andrews    Old Course    72.1    129    6566

[Sean_A]

I wonder what was used as "standard" wind to determine slope and rating?  Once the wind gets to 20mph all bets are off concerning these ratings - is there any guidance to that effect?  Also, which tees were rated?  It makes a huge difference for the championship courses.  Bottom line, for those posting scores from these trips, I bet for the vast majority it is a vehicle to raise their caps. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Don't you have the same issue at Bandon, Ballyneal, or any U.S. course for that matter?  Conditions change from day-to-day and the rating and slope concept have a number of limitations, this being just one.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Really?.......

yeah man, sometimes its fun

[jeffwarne]

Really?.......

yeah man, sometimes its fun

Not directed at you Ed, more at the thread and the fact a guy can't take a vacation without the need to post a handicap score with less than a perfect, exact rating.
Which of course is absolutely impossible.
I think Jim's reaction was one of actual surprise given they use a different handicap system overseas.
I want the guy as a partner this month who last month went to Brora, played 7 rounds there in 25-35 mph winds then posted a his scores with a slope of 117 and a rating of 69.5.

[Will Lozier]

While I am generally a fan of the slope system and think it comes out about right in most cases, it seems silly to me to assign a slope on a windy links course. 

On a calm day, the slope could be 100 and on a real windy day it could be 156.  A guy with a 180 yard slice has no chance in a 40 mph wind.  Assigning a slope within that range is pretty random. 

Jason,

Congrats on 4000 posts!  Now, WHO has a 180 yard slice...even in a British wind!?

Cheers

[Ed Brzezowski]

The rating manual goes into a brief " prevailing wind " rating description. Nice to see a value of 10 on holes into a 20mph or greater headwind wind. 5 for a crosswinnd and  -4 for downwind holes.

Explains why some of the course ratings across the pond look out of whack.

[Jeff_Lewis]

RCD

  Total Yards          Par       SSS/Course Rating    Slope
Championship 7186 71       75                          142    
Medal 6878 71                  74                          131  
Stableford 6675 71            73                          126

From the white tees that sure didn't feel like a 131 slope.

And Jeff Warne, if you don't like the thread.  Don't read it. I was just asking a question because I thought what i noticed on the card was odd.  That's all.

[jeffwarne]

RCD

  Total Yards          Par       SSS/Course Rating    Slope
Championship 7186 71       75                          142    
Medal 6878 71                  74                          131  
Stableford 6675 71            73                          126

From the white tees that sure didn't feel like a 131 slope.

And Jeff Warne, if you don't like the thread.  Don't read it. I was just asking a question because I thought what i noticed on the card was odd.  That's all.

Jeff Lewis,
Poor word choice on my part.
Note I did write in a later post you were merely asking a question. (by " really? " ,I was expressing my surprise they bothered to slope courses for US visitors-(the same as it struck you odd))
It's just such an inexact science, It seems a US visitor could take a break from the numbers.

[Rich Goodale]

For players over here in the UK, the USGA-type slopes calculalted by whomever are completely irrelevant.  They have been developed for and are used by non-UK players to either: establish a playing a handicap for an open competition at a UK golf club; or to allocate strokes in friendly games.  As other have said above, these slopes are highly suspect (e.g. Elie with a slope of 112?!).  Otherwise, fuggedabootit!

[Jeff_Lewis]

Jeff W, indignation withdrawn.