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Mark Bourgeois

Old School, New School...now Middle School
« on: May 19, 2012, 12:37:11 PM »
Some people who are unhappy with today's game roll it back 100 years, play hickories. Why go so far? Why not roll it back only 20 years?

Architects

Old School


New School


Middle School


Fashion

Old School


New School


Middle School


Professionals

Old School


New School


Middle School


Equipment: balls

Old School


New School


Middle School


Equipment: drivers

Old School


New School


Middle School




Middle School: party like it's 1989, not 1889!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 03:20:21 PM »
I'm with you Mark.  Wade S. (a gca-er) plays with the era clubs you suggest and uses balata balls.  I have some persimmons as well and I rotate between hickories of the 1880s style and 1920's style, persimmmons, and modern clubs and balls. 

I find it to be a TON of fun and very educational regarding how the technology (mainly the ball IMO) changes the nature of each and every course/hole and its hazards.  Really cool stuff!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 03:52:33 PM »
I've got a bag full of Hogan persimmons and blades I pull out each summer for a round or two.  Anyone remember the last major won with a persimmon driver?  Would it be Norman, Price or Langer maybe?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 05:05:04 PM »
I thought Justin Leonard was the last persimmon winner at the 1997 Open but my memory is probably lapsing.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 05:19:26 PM »
Amazing they went metal that early. I thought the last major winner was Davis Love at the PGA.

And:

Love = Middle School
Leonard = Middle School
Langer = Old School (the RoG's self-appointed Terminator)
Norman = No School

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2012, 05:30:33 PM »
I thought DL3 had one at the 97 PGA but could be mistaken.

I still got my Hogan "Little Ben" driver and irons handed down to me from my older brother circa 1985 :)

And a junior Bulls Eye putter! My 2 year old son is soooo getting it.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2012, 05:44:01 PM »
Definitely Langer '93 at the Masters with a Wood Brothers. Leonard and Love while persimmon holdouts both won with the Titleist titanium.

If I can remember how to post a photo, I'll post Langer's driver. It's a work of art.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2012, 05:46:42 PM »
Love's Wikipedia page says he won the 1997 PGA with a wooden driver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Love_III

Golf Digest says Love "was one of the last persimmon holdouts in 1997":
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2008-03/gw20080321johnson

Paging Paul Cowley.

EDIT: And while The Open Championship definitely is Old School, the Claret Jug Watson's holding is definitely Middle School. Adding plinths will do that: original trophy updated the minimal amount required to maintain relevance. Plus the thing looks like it got dropped or came off the plinth: see how it looks bent?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 05:54:05 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 05:58:49 PM »
I can't find video but both Love and Leonard started the year with persimmon but moved on to the 975D before winning majors. Trust me on this one, I'm not guessing.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2012, 06:40:03 PM »
Gentlemen, Here we go again in another self indulgent nostalgic "Leave it to Beaver" return to yester-year.

Why don't we just embrace the FACT that bifurcation caused by equipment advances is here to stay?

I like my new adjustable loft and face Titleist Driver!

Do you think the world is going to eliminate nuclear weapons?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2012, 06:49:53 PM »
Gentlemen, Here we go again in another self indulgent nostalgic "Leave it to Beaver" return to yester-year.

Why don't we just embrace the FACT that bifurcation caused by equipment advances is here to stay?

I like my new adjustable loft and face Titleist Driver!

Do you think the world is going to eliminate nuclear weapons?

???

Why can't people play with the equipment they enjoy the most? 

You say you like your adjustable loft and face driver.  Good for you!  I like my hickories.  Wade likes playing with balatas. Just because the equipment advances are here to stay doesn't mean we have to particpate in the arms race.  If you choose to, fine.  Why bash others who don't?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2012, 06:56:45 PM »
Sorry to bother you there, Carl, but golf history and fun are two reasons I participate on this site.  Besides, working a golf ball, IMHO, is (was) an art form. 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2012, 07:18:04 PM »
Do you think the world is going to eliminate nuclear weapons?

Only on golf courses.

The amazing thing to me is that the performance differences between the old school and middle school are not all that different.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 07:32:50 PM »
Gentlemen, Here we go again in another self indulgent nostalgic "Leave it to Beaver" return to yester-year.

Why don't we just embrace the FACT that bifurcation caused by equipment advances is here to stay?

I like my new adjustable loft and face Titleist Driver!

Do you think the world is going to eliminate nuclear weapons?

???

Why can't people play with the equipment they enjoy the most?  

You say you like your adjustable loft and face driver.  Good for you!  I like my hickories.  Wade likes playing with balatas. Just because the equipment advances are here to stay doesn't mean we have to particpate in the arms race.  If you choose to, fine.  Why bash others who don't?
Because there is a whiff of moral superiority in the arguement ... I like my 3 hybrids I play with also ....

Hogan, Jones (I think had the first truly matched set of clubs), Sarazen (the guy who invented the sand wedge) Hagen etc used the best equipment they had available to them

Are there courses that are well known that can actually be played w/ hickories? at 5000 yards maybe??
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:38:59 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 07:43:02 PM »
Carl,

As long as you're not hypocritical about it and wear only technicals not outmoded natural fibers. Like this:

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2012, 08:06:35 PM »
Because there is a whiff of moral superiority in the arguement

 ???

I don't see that at all in this thread.  We've talked about how much fun it is. 


You also touch on some very interesting and fun things to try.  Try playing without a sand wedge (or a highly lofted niblick) and see how huge of a breakthrough the sand wedge (or lofted niblick) was.  Unreal!  It really minimized the hazard aspect of bunkers.  I "got" why water became such a widely used hazard after this invention.

Smacking around a gutty, I saw the impact of the rubber cored ball had on the game and architecture.  Again, unreal!


I think there is no question that it is inherent in Man's make up to seek advantage of their opponents in anyway possible.  Sand wedge, cored ball, rocket ballz, steel shafts, etc.  And you touch on that.  That will NEVER change...it is in our DNA.  Think throwing rocks, throwing spears, using bow and arrows, muskets, rifles, machine guns,...fast forward to nukes. 

But I don't play with these clubs to be better than anyone (or morally superior).  I haven't found anyone that I've played with who feels this way.  They just think it is fun.



Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 08:28:12 PM »
I aim for the hickory crowd and the technos think I'm hitting them.

Maybe we should rename it High School!

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2012, 10:08:39 PM »
I've been using a pre-Titleist Acushnet Bullseye putter for the last few weeks and it's awesome.  I have better speed control with it than any other putter I've had.  I used it for a while back in high school.  One kid on a rival team saw me putting with it before a match and sneered, "What is that, a mini golf putter?"  "No," I answered, "it's the putter I'm going to beat you with today." I shot 73 and he shot 80.  Awesome.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 10:24:27 PM »
Tim, you are so morally superior...

I think that we can continue this debate if we are spoiling for a fight. By all means, duke it out with keyboards or keypads at ten paces.

I played moderns today and may get the chance to play hicks next weekend. That's how I get my rush.

If you get yours from one specific set of clubs, BULLY!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 12:08:55 AM »
Tim, you are so morally superior...

I think that we can continue this debate if we are spoiling for a fight. By all means, duke it out with keyboards or keypads at ten paces.

I played moderns today and may get the chance to play hicks next weekend. That's how I get my rush.

If you get yours from one specific set of clubs, BULLY!

Ron-Mon--

In hindsight, I probably should have left that sentiment unsaid, but I was 16 and I had a bit of a history with the kid, who is a jerk.

Anyway, I think there's room in the game for equipment users of all kinds.  If folks delight in using hickories, that's cool.  I'm kind of curious if those who play a significant portion of their rounds with hickories/"middle school" equipment and the rest with the newer stuff have two separate handicaps!  And, I'm curious as to the handicap difference between those levels.

I'll freely admit that part of what I like about my Bullseye is the chance to brandish it to people wielding modern $500 flatsticks. And frankly, it might pose a psychological obstacle to opponents.  Or so I've deluded myself! ;D
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 07:50:40 AM »
Next week I am going to a demo day where I can get fitted for a new TaylorMade driver.  My whole game, since the time I was 7, has centered around hitting the ball as far as possible and then finding out how to get to the green from there.  I've found that being the guy who hits 300 yard drives has more than compensated for being short in other areas.....
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 07:56:33 AM »
If you're not allergic to push-ups and dips, I find that those two exercises do more to control my swing (a thing of beauty, it is) and allow me to hit with the extra 10% needed to get longer than nature intended...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 09:18:59 AM »
I'm kind of curious if those who play a significant portion of their rounds with hickories/"middle school" equipment and the rest with the newer stuff have two separate handicaps!  And, I'm curious as to the handicap difference between those levels.

My New School set actually has a real old, old school look because the only irons in the bag are two wedges, sort of like a set of long-nose clubs. (I am resigned to the inevitability of my 35-year case of the shanks)

With them my handicap has ranged from 9-12 in recent years.  My average score, according to GHIN, is ~85.

Last week I played two rounds with a nine-club set of hickories, and moved up from ~6,400 yards to just under 6,000 because My drives drop from 200-210 to about 180 or so.

With the hickories I shot 89 and 91 and figure that if I played them exclusively, I could probably get my handicap in the 14-15 range without too much trouble.

I also have a sort of middle-school set I play with.  It's my Dad's original 1958 Haig Ultra irons, an original 1930s R-20, the Bulllseye my Dad gave me for my birthday in 1959, and a set of Honma persimmon woods. The Honmas are my "cheat" because I just can't play with steel-shafted woods anymore and they have L-flex graphites. On a firm course, I hit that driver VERY close to the same distance as my modern one, although it doesn't carry as far so a soggy course really hurts me.

As long as the shanks stay away, I shoot scores within a couple of shots of my modern set.  In fact, a couple of years ago, I had my low round of the summer, a 75, with the Haigs.  But then a couple of days later I got the shanks and shot 103

One reason I shoot higher scores with the old clubs, especially the hickories is that I can't get out of trouble with them like I can with the new clubs.

My misses with the old clubs might be slightly worse, but the biggest difference is in how the game is played, I just can't carry the ball very far with them, so bouncing the ball onto the green becomes a necessity.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old School, New School...now Middle School
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2012, 09:30:23 AM »
I aim for the hickory crowd and the technos think I'm hitting them.

Maybe we should rename it High School!

It works for Melvyn!