[Ted Sturges]

Pete Dye built Crooked Stick in 1964.  This was his first big time project.  The Golf Club (1967) followed a short time later.  The new course at French Lick has now been opened 3 years, so from Crooked Stick/The Golf Club to French Lick, we have about 45 years in between.  Though Crooked Stick has been "updated" (and updated, and updated) from it's original design, The Golf Club has remained virtually the same as it was when it was built (with 40 years of tree growth). 

From the 60's until French Lick, Mr. Dye built landmark courses at Harbour Town,  TPC Sawgrass, Casa De Campo, The Ocean Course, Whitling Straits, and others.  How would one describe Mr. Dye's "evolution" in his design style and philosophy?  Has it improved?

For those of you who have seen French Lick, what are your thoughts on this, perhaps his final big time project?  If this course represents 45 years of developing his philosophy, how would one describe his "current" philosophy?  Unlike the early Crooked Stick and The Golf Club, the driving corridors at French Lick are quite narrow (very skinny fairways with lots of rough...you won't likely lose a ball, but the only "strategy" with regard to driving is to hit it very straight).  What does this say about Mr. Dye's "evolved" design philosophy?

Is he purely guided by defending par against tour players?  If one embraces this notion, it could explain how different his last course is from his first.

Very curious to hear the thoughts of those who have visited French Lick...

[Scott Sander]

Ted-

I have not played French Lick, but I did walk the course last month during the Big Ten championships.  The rough was fairly benign, but the greens were quite severe.  It was fascinating to watch those terribly talented kids struggle to hold greens if they were even an inch off the fairway.

  I did not like the visuals of the course because of the landing-strip nature of the fairways, but I was surprised at how much playable room there was off the fairways.   There is a certain sterility to the mowing pattern that seems unnecessarily rigid. 

Funny thing is that instead of seeing it as indicative of a late-life style, if anything, I was struck by how much of an outlier it seems to be among latter-Dye courses.  I'm sure you've played or seen Woodland and Bridgewater - both also built fairly recently.  Think of how enormously wide those fairways are!  The greens and surrounds at FL are much more severe, too. 

I tend to think that he builds courses for horses - and Mr. Cook must have wanted a backbreaker. 

[Jason Thurman]

I agree with Scott. Though I haven't seen French Lick up close (yet), Dye built it as a challenge for high-level tournament players and, as a result, it probably doesn't serve as the best example of his personal style.

[Bill_McBride]

It doesn't sound like much fun for the mid to high handicapper.   Isn't that how his courses have always been?   What evolution?

Hello Ted, where have you been since Liverpool 2006?   

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:

Mr. Dye's style has certainly evolved over the years, but that's hardly surprising -- so has the world, and so has his perspective on it.  I won't call it better or worse, just different.

Thirty years ago when I worked for him, Long Cove was a break from the Tour and the TPC -- Mrs. Dye kept reminding him that he didn't have to worry about what the Tour pros were going to do there, and I think that sense of relief helped produce a great course.  But, after that, the majority of the projects he saw were big projects that sought a big tournament, so he got into the habit of thinking about the pros every time out.

When Mr. Jones [RTJ Sr.] got older, he got to the point where he wasn't playing golf anymore and just watching the pros on TV, and everything he built became harder and harder after that.  By contrast, when Jack Nicklaus got to his late 50's / early 60's, he started wondering why average golfers would want a tournament course, because he could finally relate to the amateur golfer a little bit.  Pete's evolution in the last 20 years seems to have followed Mr. Jones more than Mr. Nicklaus, but until recently, at least, he was still playing golf regularly and enjoying it, and I think it would be wrong to say that he'd lost his perspective on the average golfer.

[Michael Whitaker]

I think I prefer Mr. Dye's early courses. They always seem to offer a modern interpretation of old school UK features. Granted, most of the features were manufactured and didn't always feel natural to their site, but the courses are really good. I think of DeBordieu, Preswick CC, and Long Cove in SC.

As time went on his courses started becoming more elaborate and cluttered with unnecessary mounds and bunkers... Colleton River, Barefoot Resort, and Heron Point at Sea Pines Resort are examples. It was like he was trying to outdo himself and create WOW factor.

I enjoy all of those courses, but I prefer the early ones that are simple, mostly uncluttered and straightforward.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Welcome back, Ted! I fondly remember the line in your ANGC post-mortem about Hogan getting pine tar on both hips were he to play the 7th hole today.

I don't have much to contribute to this thread beyond a title: "Stick to Lick." I am not sure that will make it past the censors.

What I would like to hear from those in the know on this topic is how his shaping has changed -- or, if you prefer, how the "texture" of his courses has changed -- and why that might be. Different assistants / shapers or just flowing with the times?

I say this because his (relatively) recent remodel of the 10th at The Honors could be a good example of his "evolution" in one place. Which is to say that hole, the look of it anyway, is out of place on that course!

[Tim Gavrich]

I've always found and thought that the majority of virtue in Pete Dye courses consists in his effective use of angles.  Though they are quite different in terms of aesthetic intensity, I like the Dye Club at Barefoot Resort and Debordieu about the same (if pressed, slight edge to Debordieu).  Barefoot is certainly visually "louder," but I kind of like it.  There's no pretense of naturalism, which is okay with me as long as the shots one is asked to hit over the course of 18 holes comprise a satisfying, simulating challenge.

The Dye courses I'm cooler on--Hampton Hall outside Hilton Head and Pound Ridge GC in New York--aren't so interesting because there isn't as much going on in the angles department.

[Matt Kardash]

I agree that French Lick's narrow fairways do not represent Dye's philosophy in general. If anything that course is an anomoly because dye always has wide fairways. From hearing Dye speak I truly believe that French Lick was a reaction to his championship courses always being narrowed for major championships. At french Lick he designed a course where the fairways are already narrow and will not be tampered with. He choose to keep the rough real short to give the average golfer a wide corrider to play in. He argues that he average golfer hits the ball better out of short rough than in the fairway.

I think Pete Dye still designs a very good golf course, and french Lick is a good example of that. However, I think in the last 15 or so years his courses have less variety, more specifically his green complexes. French Lick, even Whistling Straits always seem to have the same type of greens: Green angled to the left or to the right with steep slope on the short side and bunkers built into the slope. There's nothign wrong with this type of green, but I think a little more variety wouldn't hurt.

[Tom_Doak]

At french Lick he designed a course where the fairways are already narrow and will not be tampered with. He choose to keep the rough real short to give the average golfer a wide corrider to play in. He argues that he average golfer hits the ball better out of short rough than in the fairway.

Matt:

This is not a new idea for Pete.  He told me when we were building Riverdale Dunes that I was making the fairways too wide and that the average golfers would rather hit out of short bluegrass rough than off bentgrass anyway.  And that was in 1984.

[Matt Kardash]

At french Lick he designed a course where the fairways are already narrow and will not be tampered with. He choose to keep the rough real short to give the average golfer a wide corrider to play in. He argues that he average golfer hits the ball better out of short rough than in the fairway.

Matt:

This is not a new idea for Pete.  He told me when we were building Riverdale Dunes that I was making the fairways too wide and that the average golfers would rather hit out of short bluegrass rough than off bentgrass anyway.  And that was in 1984.

Is Riverdale Dunes as narrow as French Lick? From Google Earth it seems as though the fairways at French Lick are no wider than 30 yards, many being closer to 20! In contrast I was just looking at Old Marsh on Google Earth (because it is a subject in another thread) and that course features fairways between 40 and 60 yards wide, with probably the majority leaning more towards 60 yards wide! I'm guessing Pete felt he had to keep the corridors real wide because the marsh was everywhere.

[Tom_Doak]

No, Riverdale Dunes is pretty wide -- I didn't listen too well back then.

[Matt Kardash]

No, Riverdale Dunes is pretty wide -- I didn't listen too well back then.

I wish this was Facebook so I could just click the ''like'' button! 

[Ted Sturges]

Very interesting points Tom Doak about Nicklaus and RTJ Sr. late in their design careers (the greatest player ever became more aware of the poorer player as his own game declined, while Jones stopped playing, watched more TV golf and made his courses harder).  It seems to me that Mr. Dye (who I played with late last year and he shot his age from the blue tees at CS) still plays the game reasonably well and also has an acute awareness of how the tour players play.  I think French Lick is designed with the future tour player in mind (from the 300 yard par 3, to the pencil thin fairways, to the 8,000 yard set of tees). 

To Tom Doak:  Have you ever designed one of your courses with the tour players in mind rather than just building the best course on the land you have? 

Footnote on French Lick and the 19th updated version of Crooked Stick:  I don't consider FL among Mr. Dye's top 25 courses.  It's very hard, the pencil thin fairways make you "think" less when standing on the tee, and other than the vista views, I don't find the course visually attractive (I once described it as the only course I had ever played where I thought I might "fall off of it").  I played CS several times during my teenage years (70's) and I think the course was better then than it is today (certainly more visually appealing with few trees and the heather).  The changes there over the years seem totally aimed at defending par against the tour (and one could argue that if Fred Funk can shoot -20 there, these changes have missed the mark).  My conclusion:  Mr. Dye has "evolved"...and not for the better.

TS

[Chris Clouser]

Ted,

Your comments, almost to the tee, reflect what I feel as well about Dye and his work.  I haven't played FL, but I've walked it once late in the construction process and then again at the Big Ten tournament and I was astounded at how narrow that place is.  As for the quote by Dye about players hitting it better out of the rough, he must be assuming they are sitting their ball on top of it.  Because that is not my experience at all or that of anyone I know.  Other than FL I have played every other Dye course in Indiana and I find that his work has almost become a caricature of what his original concepts at Maple Creek, Sahm, and even Crooked Stick were about.  His courses seem to now feel like they are template driven, due to his supposed influence by Raynor, but the templates have become somewhat stale and the only thing he can do to spice them up is make the holes longer and narrower.  Unless he is given a unique piece of land like that at The Fort or Mystic Hills (which is one of his better designs in the last 20 years in my mind) it just feels like each Dye course is almost identical but just changes the order of the holes.  Take Plum Creek in Carmel, the Brickyard, or Kampen at Purdue and you can find several holes that are almost exact replicas of one another on each course.  FL just intesifies the negative aspects of that idea by being on such an exposed piece of land and with the long ribbonesque fairways. 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

...but until recently, at least, he was still playing golf regularly and enjoying it, and I think it would be wrong to say that he'd lost his perspective on the average golfer.

Pete played The Ocean Course during our media day last month when we had Keegan Bradley here.  He playing from the middle set of tees (6,475 yards) and had 11 pars and beat his age by a couple of strokes.  ...BTW, he walked the 18.  No carts for Mr. Dye...

[Niall Hay]

Footnote on French Lick and the 19th updated version of Crooked Stick:  I don't consider FL among Mr. Dye's top 25 courses.  It's very hard, the pencil thin fairways make you "think" less when standing on the tee, and other than the vista views, I don't find the course visually attractive (I once described it as the only course I had ever played where I thought I might "fall off of it").  I played CS several times during my teenage years (70's) and I think the course was better then than it is today (certainly more visually appealing with few trees and the heather).  The changes there over the years seem totally aimed at defending par against the tour (and one could argue that if Fred Funk can shoot -20 there, these changes have missed the mark).  My conclusion:  Mr. Dye has "evolved"...and not for the better.

TS

What do you consider Pete Dye's Top 25 courses?   My list would start with The Golf Club.

[Ted Sturges]

This would be my top 10:


1.  The Ocean Course at Kiawah
2.  The Golf Club
3.  Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
4.  Harbour Town
5.  Long Cove
6.  Honors Course
7.  Pete Dye Golf Club
8.  TPC Sawgrass
9.  Whistling Straits
10.  The Fort (Indy)

[Niall Hay]

This would be my top 10:


1.  The Ocean Course at Kiawah
2.  The Golf Club
3.  Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
4.  Harbour Town
5.  Long Cove
6.  Honors Course
7.  Pete Dye Golf Club
8.  TPC Sawgrass
9.  Whistling Straits
10.  The Fort (Indy)

Whistling Straits is pretty low. No Blackwolf?

[Matt Kardash]

http://vimeo.com/19282538
Mr. Dye cracks me up. Watch this video. I am guessing this is not showing evolution, I'm guessing he has always been this way. This video is Pete Dye at Pound Ridge on a site visit.

Also, this video further reinforces my belief that Pete Dye didn't have a ton to do with this course. His son Perry being around a lot leads me to believe it is mostly one of his courses. I think that makes  a lot of sense.

[Matthew Essig]

This would be my top 10:


1.  The Ocean Course at Kiawah
2.  The Golf Club
3.  Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
4.  Harbour Town
5.  Long Cove
6.  Honors Course
7.  Pete Dye Golf Club
8.  TPC Sawgrass
9.  Whistling Straits
10.  The Fort (Indy)

Whistling Straits is pretty low. No Blackwolf?

I was thinking the same thing. I would put Blackwolf at #9, above Straits and below Sawgrass

[Tom MacWood]

I haven't played as many Dye courses as you fellows, but of those I have played (TGC, Harbour Town, Casa de Campo, Long Cove, Little Turtle, and Whistling Straits), I've always thought TGC was well above all the rest. CdC is spectacular and would probably be #2 in my limited experience, but the interior holes are missing something.

At the time TGC was built it was considered revolutionary, but it is really a very subtle design, and as a result I think it is underrated today. I understand Crooked Stick was a lot like it before PD began tinkering. Any way you cut it PD is the greatest American golf architect of my time.

[ward peyronnin]

Funny this thread should come up as I played FL Dye for the first time last week.

This is not a course i would want to play everyday nor even more than once a year so does that make it a "resort" course?

It is so forced on that land and contrived. The volcano bunkers are more "modern art" than complementary or strategic features. My goodness chocalate drops with sand on top!! They were abandoned years ago and do not deserve even a new twist(ed) revival.

Three nearly identical par fives that are so obviously tricked up cape holes on steroids.

Firm teacup small greens that don't hold lob wedge shots and that rarely offer a bailout area on an extremely windy setup. And rough slopes that OSHA mowing inspectors couldn't be aware of. Lakes that exist because someone pushed up a damn on the side of a small mountain that no geomorphologic process could defy physics to produce. Maybe Mr. Dye designed this for future video golf syndication. He was always tough but evolved; yes into the mean spiritedness of old age

Other than that I liked the course

[Nigel Islam]

Long time lurker, but as an Indiana boy I felt compelled to chime in here. I have had the the opportunity to play most of Dye's Indiana courses as well as Harbour Town. The French Lick course certainly uses the angles he is famous for, but the interesting thing about French Lick is that is one of the highest parts of the state. I think the FL course has much more in the way of undulations and elevation changes than the other offerings I have played. (the uphill 13th that is supposed to be the redan?)  think this is what makes the course so severe. It is also very exposed to the wind. I generally have had a lot of fun on Dye courses, but on a cold October day with a lot of wind, I was exhausted and beat up. By the way I hit 11 fairways so I am not sure it'd plays quite as narrow as one would think.

Off the subject, but that club house and pro shop are just awesome up there on the hill.

[Andy Troeger]

I've found that I enjoy many of Mr. Dye's older courses quite a bit better than his more recent ones. The Golf Club, TPC Sawgrass, Oak Tree National, The Honors, Long Cove, and Crooked Stick are all still among his best IMO, and even courses built after those such as Pete Dye GC and Blackwolf Run are also just fantastic places IMO.  I think Kiawah is probably the one big one in the US that I have not had the pleasure of seeing yet.

I did not like French Lick. The fairways are so narrow, and the rough is so random that it was anti-strategic for me. I'm not straight enough to hit 25-yard fairways, so I just swing hard and hoped to miss it in a flat spot in the rough. That actually worked out pretty well quite a bit of the time. But, there are lots of little bunkers and significant steep slopes, and if you get unlucky or aren't a strong player you could be out there quite awhile. I have no real desire to see it again, other than perhaps to find out whether I'd like it better with more players. I'm not curious enough to pay the going rate to find that out, however. I don't have that many criticisms other than the narrow fairways--the greens are fine and the views and location are truly incredible.

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