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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Identifying the best golfer
« on: May 14, 2012, 07:06:40 PM »
Does a penal course/setup identify the best golfer?
What would happen if the next major was held at NGLA (enlarged by 10%) or Old MacDonald.

What would happen if a major was held at a course that held no fear for the players, but rather inspired strategy, boldness, and creativity?
a course where there was usually 40-100 yards of playable area.but where the real penalty was playing to the safer side of that playable area.
a course where the only fear was not playing enough inspired shots, or having enough local knowledge,rather than such obvious fears as island greens, OB, water, and inpenetrable/unfindable rough/native areas.

Does such a course identify smart play? or do narrow fairways do that?
and does a good setup identify the best player?
Or the player hitting it the best that week?

Let's leave Augusta out of the equation for now
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 07:23:38 PM »
Jeff:

They are never going to play a major championship on a course like that, because they don't want to be proven wrong in what they've been doing all these years.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 07:52:13 PM »
Why can't we discuss the Open Championship results at TOC? Pretty good list of folks who won it there.

Stewart Naugler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 08:08:34 PM »
Jeff- In my opinion you're describing most British Opens, which says a lot about American golf and the USGA. Think about how Tiger won at Hoylake?

We share very similar views on this but from my tournament experience and from talking to tour pros, I believe it comes down to who's putting the best that week. Now don't get me wrong, putting doesn't matter if it takes you 5 shots to get to the green.

I often think back to so many incredibly bold shots that were flawlessly executed, only to be forgotten because of a missed putt.

I guess you could say the management and setup of the greens is the key for me. Along with the height of the rough, yardage, and fairway width. Didn't one or a few greens define the last US Open at Shinnecock? One of the best major championship tracks of all time.

Basically Tom's right on the money.


Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 08:16:53 PM »
Watching how the USGA is working to set up Chambers Bay for the 2015 US Open, its easy for me to conclude that Tom is absolutely right. I'd like to think that the course will encourage more creativity than many other alternatives, but it certainly won't encourage as much creativity as its potential. And the USGA apparently it wants it that way.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »
Jeff- In my opinion you're describing most British Opens, which says a lot about American golf and the USGA. Think about how Tiger won at Hoylake?

We share very similar views on this but from my tournament experience and from talking to tour pros, I believe it comes down to who's putting the best that week. Now don't get me wrong, putting doesn't matter if it takes you 5 shots to get to the green.

I often think back to so many incredibly bold shots that were flawlessly executed, only to be forgotten because of a missed putt.

I guess you could say the management and setup of the greens is the key for me. Along with the height of the rough, yardage, and fairway width. Didn't one or a few greens define the last US Open at Shinnecock? One of the best major championship tracks of all time.

Basically Tom's right on the money.



Snaugler,
Shinnecock as it was set up for the 2004 is NOT at all what I'm referring to.
THAT was definitely a case of who made the most putts, because a great shot got the same result as decent shot (missed green)
Shinnecock as it's playing THIS June would be a good event.

TOC and Augusta are as close as it gets to what I'm talking about (pretty good champions there)
then someone will chime in about the field of TPC etc.....ZZZZZ
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sam Morrow

Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 08:26:23 PM »
I've always thought that no matter the course set-up if everyone is playing the same course then the person who shoots the lowest score is the best golfer for that week.

Stewart Naugler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 08:30:35 PM »
Jeff- I agree with you but I do think Phil feared those greens at Shinnecock.

I wish we had more courses like TOC here in the states. We need courses that present more options and are set up to make the player think.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 08:45:38 PM »
Set up definitely seems important, but I'd say courses with BOLD greens which dictate strategy identify not only the best golfers, but the smartest ones too.


Jim Nugent

Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 12:03:36 AM »
Jeff:

They are never going to play a major championship on a course like that, because they don't want to be proven wrong in what they've been doing all these years.

If not a major, how about one of the weekly tour events? 

Here's a more specific question.  How would Oakmont play for the pro's, without the rough?  Let's assume F&F. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 06:18:05 AM »
I don't understand the question.  The best golfer is the one with the lowest score.  Courses don't decide this, players do. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 06:33:55 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 12:09:01 PM »
I don't understand the question.  The best golfer is the one with the lowest score.  Courses don't decide this, players do. 

Ciao

Making sense in such pithy pronouncements won't get you too many followers here, kind sir!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 12:34:31 PM »
Does a penal course/setup identify the best golfer?
What would happen if the next major was held at NGLA (enlarged by 10%) or Old MacDonald.

What would happen if a major was held at a course that held no fear for the players, but rather inspired strategy, boldness, and creativity?
a course where there was usually 40-100 yards of playable area.but where the real penalty was playing to the safer side of that playable area.
a course where the only fear was not playing enough inspired shots, or having enough local knowledge,rather than such obvious fears as island greens, OB, water, and inpenetrable/unfindable rough/native areas.

Does such a course identify smart play? or do narrow fairways do that?
and does a good setup identify the best player?
Or the player hitting it the best that week?

Let's leave Augusta out of the equation for now

I believe that the "easier" the conditions become (i.e., wider fairways; minimal rough; softer, more receptive greens), the more anyone could win. The easier the conditions become, the more it becomes just a big putting contest, and those types of conditions do not, necessarily, identify the best golfer over time -- at least not what I would consider the best golfer.

I'm a pretty darn good golfer in "easy" conditions. The harder it gets, though, the more that truly great amateurs' games stand out over mine. They hit it farther, are stronger, and can hit it both HIGH and LOW, whereas I mainly hit a low, high-spin ball, which works best under limited course conditions (softish greens).

That's my view, anyway....
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 12:55:58 PM by David Ober »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 12:48:03 PM »
Does a penal course/setup identify the best golfer?
What would happen if the next major was held at NGLA (enlarged by 10%) or Old MacDonald.

What would happen if a major was held at a course that held no fear for the players, but rather inspired strategy, boldness, and creativity?
a course where there was usually 40-100 yards of playable area.but where the real penalty was playing to the safer side of that playable area.
a course where the only fear was not playing enough inspired shots, or having enough local knowledge,rather than such obvious fears as island greens, OB, water, and inpenetrable/unfindable rough/native areas.

Does such a course identify smart play? or do narrow fairways do that?
and does a good setup identify the best player?
Or the player hitting it the best that week?

Let's leave Augusta out of the equation for now
[/quote/]

I believe that the "easier" the conditions become (i.e., wider fairways; minimal rough; softer, more receptive greens), the more anyone could win. The easier the conditions become, the more it becomes just a big putting contest, and those types of conditions do not, necessarily, identify the best golfer over time -- at least not what I would consider the best golfer.

I'm a pretty darn good golfer in "easy" conditions. The harder it gets, though, the more that truly great amateurs' games stand out over mine. They hit it farther, are stronger, and can hit it both HIGH and LOW, whereas I mainly hit a low, high-spin ball, which works best under limited course conditions (softish greens).

That's my view, anyway....

David,
I believe the exact opposite.
the tighter, more penal and scary the golf course corridors, the more often you get a random Champion.
I heard the rough was pretty thick the year Fleck won at Olympic.
Pretty tough at Medinah in '75 and Carnoustie in '99..

Conversely, They rip up TOC and used to go pretty low at ANGC (granted The Masters has a smaller field so a household name is more likely)
Pretty good champions at those places.

Thoughtful architecture and setup can produce worthy champions with excellent career credentials who use all their talents to prevail, not just a hot week with the driver.

I could be wrong though.... ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 01:01:41 PM »
Forget about one week. Look at the top players in the world. Is there any doubt in your mind that the players at the top of the world rankings are not the best players in the world?

If you look at the old days of the Bob Hope Classic and the Las Vegas tournament, what you saw were all the players from 40 to 120 on the money llist playing, and any one of them was able to win in a given year (or at least finish way up the money list). It was a birdie-fest and all you had to do was hit your irons close and make putts, and the conditions were such that everyone in the field could do that. Whoever putted the best, won. Or, more likely, whoever's 7-iron - SW were most on target that week and whose putting touch was on, would win.

Long courses with firm, fast greens identify the best players, over time. Not always the best champion for one week, I'll admit. But if you look at the top ten in the toughest tournaments on the most penal, most difficult courses, you rarely see no-names creeping in.

Just like you, though: I could be wrong. :-)

Does a penal course/setup identify the best golfer?
What would happen if the next major was held at NGLA (enlarged by 10%) or Old MacDonald.

What would happen if a major was held at a course that held no fear for the players, but rather inspired strategy, boldness, and creativity?
a course where there was usually 40-100 yards of playable area.but where the real penalty was playing to the safer side of that playable area.
a course where the only fear was not playing enough inspired shots, or having enough local knowledge,rather than such obvious fears as island greens, OB, water, and inpenetrable/unfindable rough/native areas.

Does such a course identify smart play? or do narrow fairways do that?
and does a good setup identify the best player?
Or the player hitting it the best that week?

Let's leave Augusta out of the equation for now
[/quote/]

I believe that the "easier" the conditions become (i.e., wider fairways; minimal rough; softer, more receptive greens), the more anyone could win. The easier the conditions become, the more it becomes just a big putting contest, and those types of conditions do not, necessarily, identify the best golfer over time -- at least not what I would consider the best golfer.

I'm a pretty darn good golfer in "easy" conditions. The harder it gets, though, the more that truly great amateurs' games stand out over mine. They hit it farther, are stronger, and can hit it both HIGH and LOW, whereas I mainly hit a low, high-spin ball, which works best under limited course conditions (softish greens).

That's my view, anyway....

David,
I believe the exact opposite.
the tighter, more penal and scary the golf course corridors, the more often you get a random Champion.
I heard the rough was pretty thick the year Fleck won at Olympic.
Pretty tough at Medinah in '75 and Carnoustie in '99..

Conversely, They rip up TOC and used to go pretty low at ANGC (granted The Masters has a smaller field so a household name is more likely)
Pretty good champions at those places.

Thoughtful architecture and setup can produce worthy champions with excellent career credentials who use all their talents to prevail, not just a hot week with the driver.

I could be wrong though.... ;)

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 01:23:28 PM »
what about Augusta national?
Although the fairways have been significantly narrowed, one would still be crazy to say there is no strategy at ANGC.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 02:12:42 PM »
Pinehurst #2 might play more like the anti-typical.   There won't be much rough in those waste bunkers. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Identifying the best golfer
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 02:59:12 PM »
since golf is far from running a 100 meter dash...Bolt and his world record

determining the best golfer may only be determined over time and at multiple different venues

it may be easier to determine the best golfer for a specific venue, eg. Bay Hill

the best golfer may be like the best wine, it may depend on your palate

thanks
It's all about the golf!