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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 07:08:08 PM »
Maybe.  Or maybe more like a generic nickname, like Tommy Atkins for British soldiers.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
What is interesting is that Pete Dye would have never known the pre-Wilson renovations and I wonder how much he would have known of the pre-Amos Jones greens.

Under Dunphy's watch, the greens were sacrosanct, according to a phone call I had with Von Hagge discussing Wilson's time at Seminole.  Von Hagge was Wilson's associate and did a lot of the work. 

I'm not sure the aerials corroborate Pete's story.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 08:35:12 PM »
Mark:


OK, I just finished about an hour long telephone conversation with Pete Dye and I think I now understand this whole "Amos Jones," 'screwing up the greens' history with Seminole, according to Pete. It is fascinating and the way he describes it, it does make perfect sense----I think!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »
Mark:


OK, I just finished about an hour long telephone conversation with Pete Dye and I think I now understand this whole "Amos Jones," 'screwing up the greens' history with Seminole, according to Pete. It is fascinating and the way he describes it, it does make perfect sense----I think!

Keeping us in suspense?

He is alsomthe guy that said Sawgrass was built on a swamp, which Mucci proved wrong...
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 08:49:21 PM »
JC:

Who is the guy who said Sawgrass was built on a swamp?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »
JC:

Who is the guy who said Sawgrass was built on a swamp?

There is a quote I pulled up that is in another thread where Pete Dye said it was a swamp.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2012, 10:48:13 PM »
It is a shame the diagonal cross bunker on 16 was never built.  Having not played Seminole, it looks great in the drawing, so much so that the aerials seem a bit boring (on that particular hole).  Not sure what the elevation change is on that part of the course but would love to hear some opinions on whether that bunker would add anything to what is currently there.

Will,

The bunker wouldn't add much in terms of being in play, but, it might have visually shrunk the appearance of the DZ.

That cross bunker is actually three bunkers and ranged from about 120 to 195 from the back of the tee, and from about 70 to 145 from the front of the tee.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 10:56:23 PM »
TEPaul, David, Mark, et. al.,

Pete Dye was born in 1925, and raised in Ohio.
In 1944 he joined the army and served at Fort Bragg, NC until his discharge which was probably 1946-47 or later.
Then, he enrolled in Rollins College

Based upon that chronology of events, I would doubt that he was intimately familiar with the greens at Seminole prior to 1947 and possibly not until some time later.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2012, 11:03:34 PM »
What is interesting is that Pete Dye would have never known the pre-Wilson renovations and I wonder how much he would have known of the pre-Amos Jones greens.

Under Dunphy's watch, the greens were sacrosanct, according to a phone call I had with Von Hagge discussing Wilson's time at Seminole.  Von Hagge was Wilson's associate and did a lot of the work. 

I'm not sure the aerials corroborate Pete's story.


I agree.

I have Ross's Field Drawings of the holes/greens.
Someone sent them to me a decade or two ago.
I'll look for them and if I find them, I'll send them to someone who can post them.

I also have a 1930 aerial of Seminole, courtesy of the Palm Beach Historical Society, which casts doubt on the 'ruination" story.

The problem with the aerial, and all aerials, is that you can't see the definition in the greens, the slopes/contours, but, you can see the shape of the greens and the surrounding bunkers.

When you compare the 1930 aerial and Ross's field drawings to the current green, my untrained eye can't see how they were or are "ruined"

So, I have to view the story of the ruination of Seminole's greens with enlightened suspicion.


Mark Bourgeois

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2012, 11:17:02 PM »
Specifically on Pete Dye's knowledge of changes to Seminole, he's far from a dolt. People! We are talking about Pete Dye.

Stand by for affirmational thread.

TEPaul

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2012, 11:35:46 PM »
Mark and David Moriarty:


Would you like to know the actual story about Amos Jones according to Pete Dye or would either or both of you just prefer to speculate about it?

Actually, David Moriarty's Post #23 is remarkably prescient. The reason I say that is I had a good hour conversation tonight with Pete about this specific subject.

Would you like to hear what he said or would you prefer to just speculate on your own about the evolution of Seminole and/or who Amos Jones was and his part in it?   ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 11:37:20 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2012, 11:37:10 PM »
Yawn.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2012, 11:39:17 PM »
If the content of David Moriarty's Post #36 has anything at all to do with my Post #35 I would encourage him to be as explanatory as he can be about it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 11:45:15 PM »

Anyway, Ross's irrigation and drainage system at Seminole really was unique. I can't remember where I read about it (perhaps in Klein's Ross book). It was specifically designed for the unusual reality that exists with the water table in the middle of the course. I think it was and is just about at the same level as the ocean. The drainage system is complex and elaborate and Ross designed it himself apparently. It pumps both in and out but particularly relies on the water body just to the south of the course (on the south side of the driveway). For the system to work properly I think that resevoir to the south was designed.

TE,

I think the complexity of the drainage system was within the body of the course, between the ridges and not just the ponds that flow south.

The pumps at the southern end, at the mid-point of the 9th fairway are primarily "outfall" pumps, designed to discharge water into the upper end of Lake Worth.  There is no reservoir south of Seminole.  "Intake" pumps are primariy for aethetics, to keep the lakes full and visually pleasant, or years ago, possibly for irrigation, although I don't know what the salinization content of the water would be, that high up from the Atlantic Inlet.

My take on the merits of the drainage system Ross designed is that it took the water from between the ridges, fed it to the centerline streams/ponds, which in turn fed it into Lake Worth.


For something that elaborate I would have to think even in the late 1920s there must have been a permitting plan that might have been filed with the county (and hopefully still available).

I don't think it was that elaborate, therefore I don't think permits were a concern..
"Outfall" and "Intake" pumps are quite common with the primary use being "outfall", the discharging of the water into the upper end of Lake Worth

Ross's 1929 schematic shows his network of streams/ponds leading out to Lake Worth.

The agencies that control water in that area, the South Florida Water Management Agency, wasn't created until 1949 and the Lake Worth Water Management Agency might have been a derivitave of the Lake Worth Water District, created in 1915, but, it's doubtful that permits would be required in light of the nature of the land south of Seminole in 1929



Mark Bourgeois

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 11:46:34 PM »
I want to know. I need to know.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 11:47:09 PM »
David,

Behave yourself.

Yes TE, I'd like to hear it, but, I have my doubts about Pete's certainty about anything occuring at Seminole prior to 1947

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 11:49:35 PM »
Specifically on Pete Dye's knowledge of changes to Seminole, he's far from a dolt. People! We are talking about Pete Dye.

Stand by for affirmational thread.

Mark,

Experience has taught me not to accept recollections as the gospel, but, I am keenly interested.


Mark Bourgeois

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2012, 11:54:29 PM »
Patrick, I am with you on the fallibility of human memory. But as shown on a separate thread, the aerials show conclusively the 3rd green was moved. That claim by Pete Dye is correct.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2012, 11:56:23 PM »
Sorry Patrick, but his act is stale.  And the neediness . . . I can think of no other word but embarrassing. Even I am embarrassed for him.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2012, 11:57:26 PM »
Its too bad this site has been transformed and old images have been lost. When I did the guess which architect is associated with this picture test that was all Donald Ross I had a picture of the original 18th green complex, and it was spectacular, and I don't use that term loosely.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2012, 11:59:27 PM »
Patrick, I am with you on the fallibility of human memory. But as shown on a separate thread, the aerials show conclusively the 3rd green was moved. That claim by Pete Dye is correct.

Mark,

The 1930 aerial from the Palm Beach Historical Society doesn't seem to support that.

Although, my eyesight could be the problem.

I haven't seen the other thread, which one is it ?


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2012, 12:21:16 AM »
Its too bad this site has been transformed and old images have been lost. When I did the guess which architect is associated with this picture test that was all Donald Ross I had a picture of the original 18th green complex, and it was spectacular, and I don't use that term loosely.

No chance of finding it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2012, 06:27:35 AM »
Mark and David Moriarty:


Would you like to know the actual story about Amos Jones according to Pete Dye or would either or both of you just prefer to speculate about it?

Actually, David Moriarty's Post #23 is remarkably prescient. The reason I say that is I had a good hour conversation tonight with Pete about this specific subject.

Would you like to hear what he said or would you prefer to just speculate on your own about the evolution of Seminole and/or who Amos Jones was and his part in it?   ;)

Well, Tom.  Are you going to tell us?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2012, 06:28:24 AM »
Specifically on Pete Dye's knowledge of changes to Seminole, he's far from a dolt. People! We are talking about Pete Dye.

Stand by for affirmational thread.

Mark,

Nobody said he was.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2012, 09:04:39 AM »
Post of Tim Liddy on March 12, 2010 on the “Re: Dick Wilson and Seminole” thread:

“Mr. Dye’s basic premise is the greens at Seminole have been top dressed so heavy and so often over the years their surface are not the original design any longer. The main person responsible for this top dressing (sometimes very heavy on Bermuda) over the early years was a maintenance tractor operator named Amos Jones. Mr. Dye feels he is more responsible for the design of the greens today than Donald Ross.

As a side note, when Mr. Dye is not happy with my work and we are with a client he will kid me and call me ‘Amos Jones”. I immediately know he is not happy with whatever feature we are discussing, while the client is unaware of his dissatisfaction.”


Post of Tim Liddy on March 13, 2012, same thread:

“JC,
The heavy topdressing was not applied evenly. Green surface lows became shallower (filled in) and the highs were reduced (tractor dragged topdressing off the highs). Over time the perimeter of the green shapes was also changed depending on how the tractor turned on and off the green (dragging the topdressing on and off the edges). This is evident if you look at old aerials of the original greens. Later, when bunkers were remodeled they matched revised green shapes, not original green shapes, which have compounded the changes over time.”

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