[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Tom

I'm not sure that you are right about fees though. If I recall rightly in the early 1920's both Colt and MacKenzie bid to design the new 18 holes of the Burgh course at North Berwick (now called the Glen) and Colt's proposed fee was 30 guineas while MacKenzies was 25. Could be wrong but I think I'm right in saying that a guinea wasn't much more than a pound back then.

Niall,

Braid's fees seem to be with the ball park of those you mentioned above. This is a snippet from the Howth GC web-site:

Just before this initial inspection, in late 1927 Howth Golf Club was offered a further 12 acres and an additional 30 acres had been offered by the (then) neighbouring estate of McDougall, an area known as the “Bay of Loughs”, all parties sharing the vision to extend the course to 18 holes. The terms of these offers had been agreed by the middle of 1928, an initial inspection by Tom Shannon, now professional at Milltown Golf Club took place and with that done, the committee decided to approach James Braid to offer him the job of designing the new course.

James Braid was a founding member of the Professional Golfers Association, and having retired from tournament golf, had become well known for his course design success and was in much demand. Braid accepted the Job for a total fee of 28 guineas and living expenses. A Scottish Company called J.R. Stutt & Co. of Paisley were awarded the job of clearing the difficult terrain and to lay the course as per the design of Mr Braid’s instructions. The work of laying the 18 hole design took just over 14 months, and on the 15th of June 1929, the Opening Ceremony was performed by the President of the Executive Council (the title given to the head of government between 1922 and 1937).

[Melvyn Morrow]

Fees are an interesting subject and unless an Architect the Fees are based upon what is required.

If the project was to survey a course, or design a course that would equate to a single price, with options/extras for site attendance, site meeting Project Management etc., etc. These options would be prices separately and be based upon a daily rate of single project/contract price.  So I believe the Fees Campbell stated for Braid at Brora would be correct for a day’s visit to re-design a course. 

As for design, on a blank canvas the design can come to you fast and quickly other times it could require a week plus to blend in the whole project. However an existing course can also be redesigned in a few hours by simple tweaking this or that or modifying that and this, yet the whole amount of work is not necessary earth shattering it can created a challenging and effectively a new course. Understanding Brora, it seems Braid came for the day, understood his brief, actioned it with some Members of the Committee leaving instructions as to what was to be done and how and left the club and its Green Keeper to complete the work he advised. From the records the club was more than pleased with the finished article, proving that we should avoid placing our interpretations on events that we were not party to the clients requirements and their instructions.

Time in design is not an issue it materialises when it materialises, the actual work to convert instructions/design can be quantified be its days weeks or months depending upon the amount of alterations. Also not forgetting if the client wanted to pay more to have the designer Project Manage or oversee the project he can do so but apparently at Brora this was not required.

It’s a question of interpretation, so I say it’s a daily fee and Niall I would always like to be paid in guineas 21 shillings vs. 20. 20 guineas equates to £21 but what a nice way to charge, so less vulgar too.   

[Niall C]

Tom,

You may well be right about the scale fees of between 6 and 10%, sounds about right for later jobs with bigger budgets. The difference between the courses MacKenzie was designing in the early 20's and what he was doing in the late 20's in the US probably has a lot to do with scale of the project. From what I've read I get the impression that the courses he was doing in the US were bigger budget affairs.

I doubt there was many courses in the UK in that era that cost £10K to build to justify the £1,000 fee based on a full 10% scale fee. Not saying there weren't any but very few and design fees of 25 to 30 guineas were probably fairly standard as Donals post suggests also. Having just done a google search the exchange rate in early 1920's varied very roughly from 3.5 and 4.5 dollars to the pound. That being the case a $2K design fee would have equated to c. £400 to £500, still a huge increase from £30 (from another google search, the value of a guinea back then was roughly £1.05).

Might explain why Mac went to America.

Niall

ps just read Melvyns post and as he alludes charging in guineas was what the professional classes did back then.

[Niall C]

Tom

A couple of months ago you posted an excerpt from Darwins biography on Braid that caused me to dig out my copy of the book and reread it. From memory the list that Darwin gives is not in any way meant to be exhaustive and illustrative only. That Brora didn't make that list is hardly surprising given the nature of the club (ie. fairly modest members club) and where it was. Can't comment on Pennard.

Hutchison - quite a few redesigns in there, which should include Pitlochry by the way, as well as a number with Guy Campbell. How much of the redesign work was substantive and how much was tweaking ? I always got the impression that Campbell was the main man in that double act and that Hutchison was more a facilitator as with Gleneagles.

In comparison with someone like Willie Fernie for instance, he seems a bit player. Fernie was the main man in the West of Scotland when the golf boom really took off. As well as designing all the Troon courses, bar the original layout for the old course which he later remodelled and tweaked a number of times, he also designed the original Turnberry course, co-designed the Dundonald course, did work at Western Gailes as well as numerous designs elsewhere in Ayrshire and Glasgow. Come to think of it, you can add Silloth to the list of courses he had a hand in tweaking (9th hole, version of the Postage Stamp, an original Fernie design). His influence was enormous in a part of the world that would in turn influence golf elsewhere through its courses and golfers that came under fernies influence.

William Watson, I don't know other than I think I'm right in saying he was also high up in the USGA ? Are many of his original designs still intact and do they still hold up as good design ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
In 1914 it was reported in the NY Times that Colt's redesign of Montrose would cost $7500. My guess is that would be around £3000. That seems a bit high for a redesign in 1914, but based on that figure his fee would have been £180. I believe, generally speaking, the cost of your average new course in the 1910s and 1920s was somewhere between £4000 and £6000, which would translate to a design fee of £240 to £360 plus expenses. In 1914 Hutchison and Braid split £240 for the design Gleneagles-Kings, which seems in line.

But in these other cases we are led to believe Braid was paid £7 and £25 respectively for the designs of Pennard (1908) and Brora (1923). Either those figures are off; or the courses were ridiculously cheap to built; or Braid was the Wallmart of golf architects and was giving his services away for free; or his activities have been somewhat exaggerated.

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
I've done considerable research on Hutchison and Campbell (as well as Hotchkin), and I have never gotten the impression CKH played second fiddle to Campbell or anyone else for that matter. He was the senior partner for the firm, and had quite a bit more design experience when they first partnered. Darwin was great admirer of his design work and was the most outspoken person about CKH not getting enough credit for his work at Gleneagles. He believed his reputation as a golf architect suffered from his quiet, modest, self effacing personality.

On balance I believe the quality of his designs and redesigns is more impressive than Braids.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Colt re-designed Rosapenna between 1911-13, with the total cost being £3,000. He re-used 3-4 holes of Vardon's routing, so it was not a totally new layout. Having said that, it does appear that a lot of earth had to be moved, as a small temporary railway was used.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

as the average annual wage in this era (1911) for an engineer or surveyor was £290 it seems unlikely that Braid would be receiving this sum as a matter of course for the many jobs he did. Firstly, GCA was not held in the same regard as it is now. Secondly, most of the courses built in the UK at this time were very rudimentary and so cost little being members clubs who often numbered a few dozen. Thirdly, the 20's were not a particularly affluent time in the UK and so it is unlikely that he could demand such a fee.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

What you are forgetting is Braid made six known visits over 12 years - altering the design several times.  He visited three times in 1908 and was paid £6.6 for the third visit.  This is you all over, only reporting what suits your theory.  Now it could be some farmer showed up and did a new design before Braid showed up each time and then Braid kept his ideas, but I am guessing your theory is far fetched and lacking in any evidence or credibility.  But then you have been known to argue the toss forever, then suddenly produce the "goods" to prove your point.  If you have the goods, produce them now and save a lot of bullshit.  

When we consider that green keeper(s) labour per week was £3, paying Braid over £6 for two days is quite a tidy sum.  Afterall, Braid was from the same stock as a green keeper and he would have been keenly aware of this.  It would also be interesting to see documentation for £1000 fees Colt charged in the 1920s and what percentage of his jobs did he charge that amount.  This seems an astronomical amount of money for a design fee at that time.  

Ciao  

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
The club site says he visited twice in 1908, you say he visited three times, and John Moreton said he visited four times that year. Where does your information come from?

The info regarding Colt's charge of £1,500 for Tokyo GC comes from Takeaki Kaneda's 'History of Golf Course Design.' Mackenzie's fee structure of $2000 per design comes directly from his pamphlet. $2000 is somewhat less than £1000, but it is hell of a lot closer than £25.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

it seems from 1925 to 1932 that the pound was worth about worth about 4.87 dollars making the 2K dollars worth about £410.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

I am not interested in what Colt charged in Dollars or Yen or what was a guideline fee by an association.  I am specifically targeting the British economy and and specific fees.  I believe £1000 design fee in the 1920s to be astronomically high and am curious as to which clubs paid that much - as it would be an indicator of a very expensive course to build.  

It is said Beau Desert cost £18-20 grand to build and I find that highly improbable even with the purchase of the land included. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Tom MacWood,

I've been following this thread and was wondering -- entirely innocently -- how much playing experience you have in GB&I?

[Niall C]

Niall
In 1914 it was reported in the NY Times that Colt's redesign of Montrose would cost $7500. My guess is that would be around £3000. That seems a bit high for a redesign in 1914, but based on that figure his fee would have been £180. I believe, generally speaking, the cost of your average new course in the 1910s and 1920s was somewhere between £4000 and £6000, which would translate to a design fee of £240 to £360 plus expenses. In 1914 Hutchison and Braid split £240 for the design Gleneagles-Kings, which seems in line.

But in these other cases we are led to believe Braid was paid £7 and £25 respectively for the designs of Pennard (1908) and Brora (1923). Either those figures are off; or the courses were ridiculously cheap to built; or Braid was the Wallmart of golf architects and was giving his services away for free; or his activities have been somewhat exaggerated.

Tom,

After another look on Google, the exchange rate in 1914 varied from a high of c. $4.75 to the pound, to $3.75 to the pound which means the work at Montrose cost about £2K give or take. From what I've seen thats about in line with redesigns/new builds. Richard Phinney might be able to comment here, as he co-wrote the club history, but I believe Colt's redesign involved a number of new holes (4 or 6 ?) which were built in the dunes with thick marram grass as opposed to the consolidated turf along dune valleys or behind dune systems where a lot of links courses were laid out. The scheme was considered quite ambitious for its time and from what I gather wasn't a total success with the club reverting back to the original routing or something like it, simply as the dunes couldn't be tamed (take heed Mr Trump !). I'm sure Richard would be able to advise what Colt's fee was.

Gleneagles in contrast, was about as far from a members club as you are going to get. You could well be right about the cost of the course(s) given the scale of the overall project but in no way could Gleneagles be held up to be the standard. Its been a while since I've seen the Gleneagles correspondence and you could well be right about Braid laying off part of his fee to Hutchison but it would be surprising given that Hutchison actually worked as Director of Golf for the company building the project and that the initial investors had identified Braid at the outset as the man they wanted to design the courses.

As Jon pointed out £25 would be a decent fee considering the salaries for tradesmen/professionals.

Niall   

[Niall C]

Colt re-designed Rosapenna between 1911-13, with the total cost being £3,000. He re-used 3-4 holes of Vardon's routing, so it was not a totally new layout. Having said that, it does appear that a lot of earth had to be moved, as a small temporary railway was used.

Donal

That sum does seem about right for the time. I don't think costs went up much after the war, not initially, as I think I'm right in saying that quite a lot of golf course work was partly subsidised by the government in that they gave grants for unemployed to provide the labour. Duff House Royal and Hazlehead were both examples of this.

Niall 

[Niall C]

Niall
I've done considerable research on Hutchison and Campbell (as well as Hotchkin), and I have never gotten the impression CKH played second fiddle to Campbell or anyone else for that matter. He was the senior partner for the firm, and had quite a bit more design experience when they first partnered. Darwin was great admirer of his design work and was the most outspoken person about CKH not getting enough credit for his work at Gleneagles. He believed his reputation as a golf architect suffered from his quiet, modest, self effacing personality.

On balance I believe the quality of his designs and redesigns is more impressive than Braids.

Tom

At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion. I haven't seen enough of Hutchisons work to comment on his ability although Pitlochry is good fun but again how much of that was him ? I just think that its hard to argue with the quality and volume of Braids work such that rather than sneaking in at no. 5 or whatever, he should be on a par with Old Tom and Willie Park Jnr, all somewhere behind MacKenzie.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

3:1 or 4:1, you boys are dancing around the real issue. Braid's respective fees of £7 at Pennard and £25 at Brora do not translate into the fees others were demanding in 1908 and 1923, including what Braid/Hutchison got at Gleneagles in 1914. Either Braid was into charity work or what he actually provided has been exaggerated.

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
The club site says he visited twice in 1908, you say he visited three times, and John Moreton said he visited four times that year. Where does your information come from?

[Tom MacWood]

Here are a few examples of fees during that era: Colt charged Kennemer (1926) 500 guineas or £525 for a new design; Willie Park's fee at Shuttle Meadow (1917) was $1500; Mackenzie charged Royal Melbourne (1926) £1000; Alison charged Tokyo GC (1929) £1,500; Donald Ross's fee in 1925 was $2000 for a new design and $1000 for a redesign (the same as Mackenzie's). It is understandable the fees in Australia and Japan would be higher to entice them to travel such a distance, but taking that into account one still gets a good idea of what the going rates were at the time (£500/$2000 for a new design and about half that figure for a major redesign). £25 isn't going to get you much.

[Sean_A]

Sean
The club site says he visited twice in 1908, you say he visited three times, and John Moreton said he visited four times that year. Where does your information come from?

Tommy Mac

From the club history. 

It only makes sense to compare design fees within an economic zone and using one currency.  I don't think we can draw many conclusions about the UK by mentioning fees in Tokyo. 

So, it seems you are backing off £1000 as a design fee in the UK as a late as the 1920s.  Do you have any documented evidence of a £500 fee in 1908?   How bout a £250 fee?

Not quite the same, but I think Colt was being paid £200 year to design, oversee construction of Swinley and run the club until it was properly running.  And these were guys he was seriously connected with through his job at Sunny.  Now it would seem rather odd for Colt to then charge £1000, £500 or even £250 to other clubs which would be getting far less of his personal attention.  That said, I would like to know the clubs which did pay these fees as it would suggest an extraordinarily well funded club. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Tom Simpson quoted £2,335 to Royal Aberdeen in the mid-late 1920's to ameliorate "(the) many grave defects (of the course) which we shall enumerate."  The council noted that this was 3 times the cost of buying the land a few years earlier and told him that outside of a few minor changes, his report would be "left over for further consideration."  As far as I know, the time for "further consideration" has not yet occurred.....

[Melvyn Morrow]

As for costs, I have a couple that might be of interest. The Eden Course by Colt was constructed for around £3,000 in 1914, while Braid proposed that £5,500 would cover the proposed new course west of the west links at North Berwick in 1923.

[Tom MacWood]

Tommy Mac

From the club history. 

It only makes sense to compare design fees within an economic zone and using one currency.  I don't think we can draw many conclusions about the UK by mentioning fees in Tokyo. 

So, it seems you are backing off £1000 as a design fee in the UK as a late as the 1920s.  Do you have any documented evidence of a £500 fee in 1908?   How bout a £250 fee?

Not quite the same, but I think Colt was being paid £200 year to design, oversee construction of Swinley and run the club until it was properly running.  And these were guys he was seriously connected with through his job at Sunny.  Now it would seem rather odd for Colt to then charge £1000, £500 or even £250 to other clubs which would be getting far less of his personal attention.  That said, I would like to know the clubs which did pay these fees as it would suggest an extraordinarily well funded club. 

Ciao

The same club history that claims they paid him £7 for his efforts?

I'm not sure what the going rate was in 1908, probably quite a bit less than £500. Braid/Hutchison split £240 at Gleneagles in 1914. In 1908 Colt was paid £12.5 for his redesign work that cost £200. That jives with the 6% fee structure. That very well may have been Colt's first ever architectural commission.

Around 1908 the cost of a new course would be somewhere between £3000 (Sunningdale-Old) and £6000 (Worlplesdon), so at 6% the design fee would be £180 to £360, which seems in line with what took place at Gleneagles. Mount Agel at Monaco cost £20,000. That must have been a hell of pay day from Willie Park. £7 is not going buy much in 1908.

[David Harshbarger]

The MacWood article is the first I've read of this era that really breathed life into these men.  One thing I wanted more of was why they, and the top 5 here, were so important re how they approached the problem and the results they got.  What describes the richness of what they delivered that would distinguish one from the other?

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

From the club history.  

It only makes sense to compare design fees within an economic zone and using one currency.  I don't think we can draw many conclusions about the UK by mentioning fees in Tokyo.  

So, it seems you are backing off £1000 as a design fee in the UK as a late as the 1920s.  Do you have any documented evidence of a £500 fee in 1908?   How bout a £250 fee?

Not quite the same, but I think Colt was being paid £200 year to design, oversee construction of Swinley and run the club until it was properly running.  And these were guys he was seriously connected with through his job at Sunny.  Now it would seem rather odd for Colt to then charge £1000, £500 or even £250 to other clubs which would be getting far less of his personal attention.  That said, I would like to know the clubs which did pay these fees as it would suggest an extraordinarily well funded club.  

Ciao

The same club history that claims they paid him £7 for his efforts?

I'm not sure what the going rate was in 1908, probably quite a bit less than £500. Braid/Hutchison split £240 at Gleneagles in 1914. In 1908 Colt was paid £12.5 for his redesign work that cost £200. That jives with the 6% fee structure. That very well may have been Colt's first ever architectural commission.

Around 1908 the cost of a new course would be somewhere between £3000 (Sunningdale-Old) and £6000 (Worlplesdon), so at 6% the design fee would be £180 to £360, which seems in line with what took place at Gleneagles. Mount Agel at Monaco cost £20,000. That must have been a hell of pay day from Willie Park. £7 is not going buy much in 1908.

Tommy Mac

It must be in your DNA to tell half truths and be obstinate.  Please see my previous posts and make an attempt to understand them.

Ciao  

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