[DMoriarty]

TomM,

While he obviously doesn't merit top 5 or top 10 status, Norman MacBeth probably ought to be on any broader list of influential Scottish designers.  He was instrumental in the creation of some pretty good courses in Southern California.  Before that he spent some time in Western PA.  

[Tom MacWood]

I thought about Macbeth as well, but I don't know enough about his background. I know he was born in England and grew up playing at Lytham, but I don't know if he was first generation and like Mackenzie and Sir Guy Campbell considered himself a Scot. I think JD Dunn would be closer to knocking on the door.

[Sean_A]

This thread has me very confused.  It isn't a matter of opinion if someone is Scottish.  Even though Scotland is often called a country, Scotland is not a sovereign nation which confers citizenship.  If one has a Scottish parent he is Scottish.  It doesn't matter where you were born or grew up.  Hell, there are probably more Scots alive now that weren't born in Scotland. 

Tommy Mac

With Gleneagles (I agree this should be a co-design credit with Hutchison), Pennard & Perranporth on his resume Braid doesn't need the likes of any of us to proclaim hi worthiness. 

 Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
Were Macbeth's parents Scottish?

Pennard is a good example. It was a redesign and its difficult to know what Braid did and what he inherited, or what CK Cotton later added. It seems to me you have a lot of the Old Tom Morris syndrome with Braid. Having his name attached to your club was/is a badge of distinction even if in reality he simply gave advice, or in some cases just pulled up and asked for directions. 

[Sean_A]

Sean
Were Macbeth's parents Scottish?

Pennard is a good example. It was a redesign and its difficult to know what Braid did and what he inherited, or what CK Cotton later added. It seems to me you have a lot of the Old Tom Morris syndrome with Braid. Having his name attached to your club was/is a badge of distinction even if in reality he simply gave advice, or in some cases just pulled up and asked for directions. 

I don't have a clue if Macbeth's parents were Sottish. 

I know Braid designed Pennard and I know the work which occurred later and some of it was critically important in what exists today.  Read my piece for details.  Its a matter of history, not a badge of distinction and its not my club.  Because you fail to accept history doesn't mean the history doesn't stand.

Ciao 

[Tom MacWood]

I know Braid designed Pennard and I know the work which occurred later and some of it was critically important in what exists today.  Read my piece for details.  Its a matter of history, not a badge of distinction and its not my club.  Because you fail to accept history doesn't mean the history doesn't stand.

Ciao 

They began playing golf at Pennard in 1896. According to the club website they hired Braid in 1908 and paid him £6.6. The going rate for a new design in 1908 was a hell of a lot more than £7. Its very unlikely he laid out a new golf course in 1908.

[Sean_A]

I know Braid designed Pennard and I know the work which occurred later and some of it was critically important in what exists today.  Read my piece for details.  Its a matter of history, not a badge of distinction and its not my club.  Because you fail to accept history doesn't mean the history doesn't stand.

Ciao 

They began playing golf at Pennard in 1896. According to the club website they hired Braid in 1908 and paid him £6.6. The going rate for a new design in 1908 was a hell of a lot more than £7. Its very unlikely he laid out a new golf course in 1908.

Tommy Mac

I lot less likely things than Braid's fee for Pennard's design are true.  We put some guys on the moon and that stills seem very unlikely to some - perhaps even you - so what is your point?  Remember, there was no set course at Pennard until Braid designed one.  So, the website is exactly correct, golf was played at Pennard from 1896. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
It would appear, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the majority of your info came from the club history. The history states they began playing golf at Pennard in 1896 on ground owned by the lord of the manor. No idea if this was an 18 hole course or a nine-holer or some other odd number of holes.

In 1908 the eldest daughter of the lord permitted local golfers to organize a club. According to the history "About 1908 James Braid was engaged to design the course and was paid a fee of £4.4s (£223) for the first day and £2.2s (£112) for the second day." The figures in parentheses are what those numbers equate to today.

You might be right, the club history could be wrong about the fee, but they obviously came up with those figures somewhere. I'm not sure how you are able to determine which part of the history you choose to believe, and which part you don't. That small fee would seem indicate a consultation/redesign, not a full design in 1908. The other odd thing about this statement, apparently they aren't certain he was there in 1908. It says 'about 1908.' That is pretty vague don't you think? I've looked in old newspapers and magazines for any mention of Braid being involved at Pennard in or around 1908 and I haven't found anything. Have you?

My point, no one knows precisely when Braid first came to Pennard, and if he designed a new course or remodeled an existing one. I'm not sure how you hang your hat on Pennard with so much uncertainty.

[Niall C]

Tom

The thing to remember about a lot of Braids work on existing courses, was that it wasn't just a tweak here and there as with his bunkering schemes, it often was a complete new course. Case in point I think is Brora which started as a nine holer designed by Sutherland which went in a clockwork direction. Sutherland then added another nine holes later on. I've never seen a plan for that but would be surprised if he radically changed the first nine. In any case after Braids redesign the course now goes in a anti-clockwise direction.

Another case in point might be his redesign of Carnoustie in the 1920's (?) which I'm sure Rich G might be able to verify.

The fact that he could do that was down to the natural terrain and suitability of the ground, which by the way possibly explains why his fee appears to be relatively cheap compared to more maybe the design fees on expensively built courses elsewhere. I suspect that might be one reason MacKenzie went to the US. Braid never did but then he was on a good thing in the UK with all his appearance fees etc.

Niall

[Niall C]

Tom

Just looking at your list, as well as Hutchison I'm not really aware of what William Watson did either. Care to elaborate ?

Sean

Of course Scotland is a nation. We have a parliament, and indeed we have another parliament which we share with our neighbours. We also have a Royal family which we also share because we're such a friendly bunch after all. But more than that, and this is the clincher as far as proving we're a nation, we've got our own National football team thats recognised by FIFA.

Now adopting the same qualifications required to play for the Scottish fitba team, MacK would qualify now but not then. Hutchison and Guy Campbell probably would now through their parentage (and indeed through their grandparents probably) but not sure then as you had to be born in the country and I'm not sure where they were born.

Of course these days Robin Hiseman might have qualified through the residency rule if he hadn't moved down south and I think I'm right in saying Scott Macpherson definitely can for the same reason, as could Rich G if only he actually designed golf courses, not that you need to do that to play football for Scotland..............is anyone following this rubbish ?

Niall

[DMoriarty]

Tom,  It seems like I looked at it at some point but I can't remember Macbeth's entire background now, but you are right he was born in England.  I do know he was often referred to as Scottish in the press, but then so was CBM on occasion so I guess this is isn't dispositive.

Although come to think of it, under Sean's theory CBM may have been Scottish.  His grandfather was Scottish (a member of the R&A) so that would make his father Scottish wherever he was born or raised, and same would apply to CBM. 

[Niall C]

David M

Good catch. CBM could definitely qualify for the Scottish football team if he was alive.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

Scotland is not a sovereign nation.  It doesn't much matter to me if you want to call Scotland a nation.  I spose this is what all this hullabaloo about independence/devolution is at least partly about.

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

David M

Good catch. CBM could definitely qualify for the Scottish football team if he was alive.

Niall

Never mind CBM, I had a Scottish grandmother.  Does the Scottish football team have a need for a slow old guy with no talent?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

The thing to remember about a lot of Braids work on existing courses, was that it wasn't just a tweak here and there as with his bunkering schemes, it often was a complete new course. Case in point I think is Brora which started as a nine holer designed by Sutherland which went in a clockwork direction. Sutherland then added another nine holes later on. I've never seen a plan for that but would be surprised if he radically changed the first nine. In any case after Braids redesign the course now goes in a anti-clockwise direction.

Another case in point might be his redesign of Carnoustie in the 1920's (?) which I'm sure Rich G might be able to verify.

The fact that he could do that was down to the natural terrain and suitability of the ground, which by the way possibly explains why his fee appears to be relatively cheap compared to more maybe the design fees on expensively built courses elsewhere. I suspect that might be one reason MacKenzie went to the US. Braid never did but then he was on a good thing in the UK with all his appearance fees etc.

Niall

Niall
Brora is another good example of the Braid phenomenon. You look at the Brora website, the club history, or anything dealing with club and you will find no mention of Sutherland, who laid out the original course as you stated. It is all Braid, and maybe he deserves full credit for completely overhauling the course, but his fee was only £25 in 1923. Something is a miss.

I will also say his contemporaries were not all big fans of his work...Bernard Darwin (who ironically wrote his biography), Horace Hutchison, and Mackenzie off the top of my mind...a bit too penal and formulaic in their opinion.

Braid definitely did redesign Carnoustie, and deserves a lot of credit for it. He had definite ideas about bunkering, which he repeated often, and Carnoustie is a good example.  

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

maybe £25 was good sum of money in those days and maybe Braid was charging what he felt was the market rate. You seem to forget that most of his clients would be embers clubs with limited resources and not the multi million dollars of many of todays developers.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

David M

Good catch. CBM could definitely qualify for the Scottish football team if he was alive.

Niall

Never mind CBM, I had a Scottish grandmother.  Does the Scottish football team have a need for a slow old guy with no talent?

No, they're already well served in that area.

[Tom MacWood]

Jon
Simpson, Colt, Mackenzie and others were charging in the vicinity of £1000 for a new design and £100 per hole for a redesign, and some lesser amount for consultation. At some point in the 20's the prominent architects formed the International Society of GA, and that organization standardized their fees. Perhaps Braid was not a member, and he was severely undercutting them. Any way you look at it there appears to be a huge disparity.

[Niall C]

David M

Good catch. CBM could definitely qualify for the Scottish football team if he was alive.

Niall

Never mind CBM, I had a Scottish grandmother.  Does the Scottish football team have a need for a slow old guy with no talent?

No, they're already well served in that area.

Damn, beat me to the punchline

[Niall C]

Tom

There's no doubt that clubs these days pay scant notice to their own history although that is getting better. Much of that history is lost in the mists of time as its never been of much interest to clubs going forward. That Braid's name has endured is as much about his place in the history of golf as a 5 time winner of the Open as being a gca.

I'm not sure that you are right about fees though. If I recall rightly in the early 1920's both Colt and MacKenzie bid to design the new 18 holes of the Burgh course at North Berwick (now called the Glen) and Colt's proposed fee was 30 guineas while MacKenzies was 25. Could be wrong but I think I'm right in saying that a guinea wasn't much more than a pound back then.

With regards to how he was regarded, Darwin got it right I think in Braids biography with regards to his style and the placement of flanking bunkers etc, but the same formulaic argument could be used to a certain extent against a few of the ODG eg. Colt and his echelon bunkering. As I say, I don't think Braid necessarily does anything flash in terms of shaping and placement of bunkering but he wasn't scared to use natural features boldly. To call him too penal I think would be wrong also. I suspect he didn't use any more bunkers than a lot of the other guys and most of them would have been flanking bunkers. The bunkering/penal thing probably came from courses like Troon which he overhauled prior to their first Open, putting in 80 bunkers. But then he was doing that with a specific goal in mind.

Anyway, Watson and Hutchison, what about them ?

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

According to Malcolm Campbell in his book The Scottish Golfing Book, he made the following comment, actually read it for yourselves from the page on Brora.



The initial reaction is that he made an error re Old Tom, which I have raised with him a few years ago. But he may not be totally wrong re a connection with Old Tom and Brora. Further information seems to say that the game was played pre the new club formation and Sutherlands design. About 1886 at the time of the Dornoch design by Old Tom, there may have been a visit and a rudimentary design done at Brora, however much more work and research has to be done to prove that point, but perhaps it’s this earlier memory that Malcolm has picked upon by mentioning Old Tom’s name.

However the main point is how he attributes Braid visit to the club to earn his fee.

[Niall C]

Jon
Simpson, Colt, Mackenzie and others were charging in the vicinity of £1000 for a new design and £100 per hole for a redesign, and some lesser amount for consultation. At some point in the 20's the prominent architects formed the International Society of GA, and that organization standardized their fees. Perhaps Braid was not a member, and he was severely undercutting them. Any way you look at it there appears to be a huge disparity.

Tom

Thinking about it further, MacKenzie advised North Berwick Town Council that an 18 hole course could be had for £3,000. Around about the same time he advised the Committee of Duff House Royal that the cost of rebuilding their course to his design would be £2,000 (from memory). Hard to believe he, or anyone else, could justify charging a £1,000 design fee on top of that. In fact at Duff House Royal, his brother built the course and I suspect/believe Mac's fee was rolled in.

Where did you get the info that others were charging £1,000 fees ?

Niall

ps. Watson and Hutchison ?

[Niall C]

Melvyn

If I recall I sent you the contemporary newspaper accounts of the time stating clearly that Sutherland out the first nine and then the second nine. Can't recall whether the first report referred to a rpevious layout by Old Tom but definitely remember reading it, probably from something you sent me !

Niall

[David_Tepper]

Speaking of Brora, David Patrick (of the Elie Golf Centre) set a new course record there recently, shooting 63 in a professional event.

www.northern-times.co.uk/Sport/Golf/Course-record-set-at-Brora-17052012.htm

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
The fees are based on different promotional pamphlets I've seen from Fowler & Simpson; Colt, Mackenzie & Alison and Mackenzie. In the early 20s their fees were based on a sliding percentage of the overall cost of the project (6% to 10% plus expenses). By the mid to late 20s Mackenzie was charging $2000 for a new course and $200 a hole for a redesign (plus expenses), based on the rate structure of the Society. Colt & Alison charged Tokyo GC £1500 plus expenses. £25 in 1923 would not get you a new design or a major redesign.

By the way there is a chapter devoted to golf architecture in Darwin's biography of Braid. In that chapter there is a long list of Braid's major designs/redesigns and neither Brora or Pennard are included.

Some of Watson's more prominent designs: Minikahda, Interlachen, Ravisloe, Homewood (Flossmoor), Thousand Island, White Bear Yacht, Olympia Fields (2 courses), Annandale, Hillcrest, Flintridge, San Diego, California, Ft. Washington, Olympic (2 courses), Harding Park, and Belvedere.

Hutchison: West Sussex (w/Campbell), Ashridge, (w/Campbell), Sundridge Park (w/Campbell), Brancaster (redesign), North Berwick (redesign), Pitlochry, Wimereux, Gleneagles (2 courses w/ Braid), Seacroft (w/Campbell), Leeds Castle (w/Campbell), Kington, Woodhall Spa (redesign w/Hotchkin), Turnberry-Old (redesign), Deal (redesign) and perhaps his most spectacular design (w/Campbell) was never built, St. Andrews-Modern.

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