[PThomas]

Recently Ron wrote "Their [Forse and Nagle] work is so good, I put Bedford Springs on the same level as the glorious Old White at West Virginina's Greenbrier among mustplay courses".  Thoughts from those  who have been there?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It is the best public access course in PA IMO.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I would not put the two in the same level but the work that was done at Bedford was brilliant.  The Old White started on a different level than Bedford Springs.  The terrain and the size at Old White give it a leg up before you even tee it up.  The par three finish at Old White is disappointing but it is still just a wonderful course.  Bedford Springs isn't as difficult but it is wonderful way to spend the day.  I had played Beford maybe 15 years ago when it was a goat patch wo to see what it haas become is nothing less than a miracle.

[Andy Shulman]

I haven't played Old White, so I can't offer a comparison of the two, but the design at Bedford Springs is excellent.  I especially like the variety of the par-3 holes, from the short pitch at #10 to an elevated (and thus blind or partially blind) two-tiered green to the brutally long #4 Volcano hole.  The three others are also all very good: #2 calls for a draw to a green with a creek guarding the left side, #14 is the well known Tiny Tim hole that features a series of mounds left and a pond just short of the green, while #17 requires a precise mid-iron shot.

The course also features several very good short to medium length par-4s, including #1, the scenic #6, #8, #15 and #18.  While the par-5s are just OK, I agree with Whitten that the course is a must play, at least if you're in the area.  It's less than two hours from Pittsburgh and just over two hours from DC.  While it's nice that discounted tee times are available on GolfNow, that worries me about the future prospects of a really fun course and the accompanying resort.

[Lester George]

Tommy,

Why is the 18th at Old White dissapointing?

Lester

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

Why is the 18th at Old White dissapointing?

Lester

Let me rephrase that. 18 is a good hole, I just don't like a par three ending.  The green helps make the hole interesting so that even if you're on the green two puts are not guaranteed.  I just wish the course could finish with a par four or five. I find them more interesting if I am in a match.

[Lester George]

Tommy,

I understand.  You must admit that Macdonald/Raynor/Banks had no reservation whatsoever about ending with a par 3 and in the case of the ones I have worked on, I think they did very well.  Cavaliers 18th (Redan) over water is highly respected and scary if you need birdie to tie or win.

Lester

[Greg Tallman]

Tommy,

I understand.  You must admit that Macdonald/Raynor/Banks had no reservation whatsoever about ending with a par 3 and in the case of the ones I have worked on, I think they did very well.  Cavaliers 18th (Redan) over water is highly respected and scary if you need birdie to tie or win.

Lester

Lester,

Was there ever any discussion of perhaps making 17 a par three and 18 a par 5? It is not as though you could not fashion a more dramatic 3 at 17 and a more dramatic 5 at 18 using the creek in both instances. Just curious... it is the PGA Tour.

[Lester George]

Greg,

I looked at it early on (pre-tour) just to see if it could be done.  Yes it could.  CSX and I never considered it because of the way we had justified the "restoration" of the original course as the way to go.  It could be done, but in my mind it would not be as unique and certainly would be a corruption of the original.  BTW, the PGA Tour guys really thought that was one of the unique aspects of the course (along with the restoration) and when they evaluated it,  (the 18th) was looked on as a positive.  No telling what the current thinking is.  Nothing would surprise me though.

Lester

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I looked at it early on (pre-tour) just to see if it could be done.  Yes it could.  CSX and I never considered it because of the way we had justified the "restoration" of the original course as the way to go.  It could be done, but in my mind it would not be as unique and certainly would be a corruption of the original.  BTW, the PGA Tour guys really thought that was one of the unique aspects of the course (along with the restoration) and when they evaluated it,  (the 18th) was looked on as a positive.  No telling what the current thinking is.  Nothing would surprise me though.

Lester

Thank you. Agreed it would destroy one of the really cool aspects of the course and tournament for that matter but it always seemed ot me that the crrek was very poorly used in that area. Heck I liked the old left green on 16 for that reason.

[Lester George]

Greg,

I wasn't a fan of the old 16th because it was a corruption of the "cape hole" concept and I didn't like the way the hole evolved because it did not consider that fact.  Additionally, most resort guests didn't like it because of the forced carry and lost balls.  Even though they payed hundreds to play it, they didn't appreciate losing their 3 dollar balls. 

Howards creek was generally avoided by CBM/Raynor for these reasons.  Moreover, they found very quickly that the soils around Howards Creek were generally saturated (wicking and seeps) and did not perform well for the maintenance of turf.  I think had they had todays advantages of construction techniques and maintenance practices, Howards Creek would be boldly asserted into their routing,  Given the conditions at the time though, I think they avoided it properly.  Remember, they had the 9 hole Findlay Course on the high ground on the casino side of the creek which was plenty of challenge for most beginning golfers. 

Lester

[Bernie Bell]

Recently Ron wrote "Their [Forse and Nagle] work is so good, I put Bedford Springs on the same level as the glorious Old White at West Virginia's Greenbrier among mustplay courses".  Thoughts from those  who have been there?

A definite mustplay, thought I haven't played Greenbrier, so can't compare.  I might compare to Pine Needles.  Bedford is also one long out and back loop.  Worth going out of your way for, and if you're there, the Flight 93 Memorial is about 30 minutes away.  Very well done by NPS.

[Joe Bausch]

Here are some photos from back in October of 2008:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/BedfordSprings/index.html

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