Royal Cinque Ports - Why Isn't It A Top 100 Course?

[Sean_A]

I had a gander at the LINKS100 addition of the second 100 courses today and saw Deal at 135.  Now I realize that 135 in the world is pretty damn good, but I can't help but believe Deal is very much under-rated - and this is coming from someone who isn't a particular fan of Deal.  Fan or no, the positive qualities of Deal are plain enough for everyone to see.  When I see courses such as Machrihanish (nowhere near Deal's quality) slotted in much higher I wonder if I just don't get good architecture.  I could also point to several other big name Open venues which I don't believe match up to Deal, but at least I understand that those are rated (rightly or wrongly) because of their championship pedigree. 

So far as I can tell, the only serious drawback to Deal is the out n' back routing which then necessitates the stern finish because of the wind.  That said, even this aspect of the design isn't so bad if the prevailing wind quartering off the right coming home is present.  Even given Deal's stern finish, I would have thought  this would be perceived as a positive for a course which has hosted Opens and other high profile events. Okay, we can quibble about other aspects such as some of the holes in the middle of the course not being up to scratch, but that argument can be countered with the flatter land actually providing some variety in a layout with several tumbling holes.  Indeed, other than a lack of short holes perhaps meaning the par 3s don't have as much variety as they could, given Deal's out n' back nature, the variety of holes is superb over ideal golfing terrain. 

Yet, we have guys who certainly know what they are talking about giving Deal what amounts to mediocre scores.  Doak gives Deal a 6 - meaning  he doesn't believe Deal is in the conversation for top 100.  Darius Oliver lumps Deal in with 267 other courses with a 1 flag rating - behind 82 higher rated courses.  Perhaps more telling is that he provides no blurb for Deal - making me think Deal didn't make a huge impression.  DEal doesn't make an appearance on Golfweek's 100 GB&I courses until #38 - behind some quite obviously lesser courses such as Nefyn, Westward Ho!, Machrihanish (again) and Wallasey.   

So, what is it about Deal which makes golfers overlook it qualities? 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

As we are continuing to learn, there are probably an infinite number of universes out there, each with its own idiosyncracies.  If there can be a "TOP 100" which ranks the University of Michigan Memorial Parking Lot above Turnberry, then surely there can be a "TOP 100" which ranks 134 golf courses in the world as "better" than Deal.  N'est-ce pas?

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Isn't it the neighbours?

There aren't many Top 100 courses right next, or extremely close, to another and, where they are, they both tend to be right up there.  Pebble/CPC and Shinnecock/NGLA are the only examples I can think of.  I wonder if Deal doesn't get marked down because it isn't seen as being as good as RSG?

[Scott Warren]

Sean, when I look at some courses I have played that are or have recently been in the back end of the Golf Mag World Top 100 -- Royal Melbourne (East), Metropolitan, The Valley Club, The European Club -- Deal is, in my mind, unquestionably superior.

It has wonderful land -- maybe ideal land in the size of the undulations through the playing surfaces. Also great dunes for placing greens and defending them without over use (or in eight greens' case use at all) of bunkers. And those landforms contribute towards rare, if not unique, holes/greens at 3, 4, 6, 12, 15, 16 and 17.

If greens are the heart of a golf course, it's hard to make an argument that there are 100 finer hearts in golf than Deal's.

It has width, quirk, toughness, the wind, great playing surfaces, elasticity of challenge through sea wall tees and greens that possess a remarkable array of pin positions.

Let's put it this way, using any reasonable criteria you like for rating golf courses, I think a convincing argument can be made for Deal being among that top echelon.

EDIT -- Brian, your comments about aesthetics are right on, and I suspect it colours some people's opinions before they give the course a legitimate shot.

But I can't resist accepting this challenge:

Take the first hole, for example - noone could argue that it's a handsome opening hole, I think it would be very difficult to get a good photo taken of it

With the first pic I ever took of Royal Cinque Ports:

[Scott Warren]

And further to that, Brian, when you play the:

1st with a front right pin and a back left pin,
4th with a back right and a left-hand pin,
6th with both front and back and in a variety of winds,
7th with a front left pin by the front swale and back by the sideboard,
10th front right and beck left -- where the ideal drive spot varies massively,
12th pinned at the front and back right where the options for banking the approach vary immeasurably,
16th front right behind the dune and  back in the bowl where you have so many options of attack,
17th back left and front right, where different slopes can be used to work the ball near or punish you if you fail to execute,
18th over by the right where the angled rise will reject anything weak,

you realise just how much variety those holes have and how differently they play depending on wind and pin.

[Simon Holt]

Gents,

Not trying to threadjack but what is the comparison to Princes?  Princes seems much cheaper as far as green fees are concerned.  Is there a reason for that?  Is it worth combining RSG, Deal and Princes in one trip?  Which of the Princes '9s' contested the Open?

Thanks,

Simon

[Sean_A]

Rihc

Once one determines which courses on any given resume are great, then virtually anything goes after that cut off line.  Turnberry fails below that cut-off for me, so does UofM.  

Scott

Can't we say that a ton of courses have great variety in terms of where holes are located on greens - especially those courses which are well bunkered?  This brings me to one aspect of Deal I can see folks saying is lacking - the bunkering.  I think the scheme is very average (very common for top links), luckily, because the terrain is so good it isn't a deal breaker for mine anyway.  

So is aesthetics all you lot come up with?

Simon

I am very much in the minority in liking Princes.  Its not as good as Deal, but I don't think there is a huge disparity between the two and therefore well worth a visit.  The two aspects of Princes which keep it from being a great course IMO are the many fairways sandwiched between low dunes and the frequency of cross wind holes (Birkdale's two biggest issues as well except the dunes there are much bigger).  Even so, there are some terrific holes: Shores 6 & 9, Dunes 1, 2, 5, 6 & 7.  Princes is more than merely solid golf!


Ciao    

[Scott Warren]

Simon,

what is the comparison to Princes?

There isn't one, really. Very different courses and I found Prince's sadly repetitive with few few truly memorable moments, but solid golf throughout.

Princes seems much cheaper as far as green fees are concerned.  Is there a reason for that?

It's not nearly as good a course is why, though it is still fun golf and decent value at what they charge. Unfortunately Jamie Barber is no longer with us on GCA as he was a strong and convincing advocate of his course, as is Sean.

Is it worth combining RSG, Deal and Princes in one trip?  Which of the Princes '9s' contested the Open?

Different combos of nines are used at Prince's for tournaments. The 27 holes occupy the land that housed the Open Championship course that Sarazen won on, with that course lost in WW2. I personally think Dunes and Shore are both stronger than Himalayas, though 7 on Hims is a show-stopping par three.

I would personally add Rye with Deal and Sandwich, not Prince's.

[Simon Holt]

Cheers Scotty.

How far away is Rye?

Simon

[Sean_A]

Sean, annoying little things like crossing the road to play the first, the road to the right of the holes on the back nine, dog walkers on the sea wall and the rest of it all contribute to perhaps a feeling of it being less "grand" than other courses in the top 50 / 100.This is again something that multiple plays will render of less importance but that may be impactful on a first visit. Also, the conditioning is excellent, no doubt, (and particularly the greens) but it has never been manicured to perfection like some others above often appear to be. Again, that's mainly cosmetic.

Brian

Yes, the awkward walk to the 1st tee and off the 18th green are a nuisance, as is the rocky lies one can draw down near the seawall and most especially behind the 8th green.  I never really put 2 and 2 together there with the lack of good views generally.  I spose it may all add up to less than great, but I am not convinced.  Deal does, however, have a certain charm even if it is a bit austere. 

Your mention of lack of multiple plays could be at the heart of the issue, but it would seem strange for guys like Doak and Oliver to fall victim to this - no?

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Simon,

About an hour from Deal.

Sean,

Maybe Tom D might post (if he is reading the thread) to say how familiar he is with the course. Played it? Walked it? car-parked it? So little has changed that the course he saw 20-30 years ago is pretty well what is there today.

[Mac Plumart]

As for Tom Doak and Darius Oliver - I'm not sure how often they have played it - but if only once or twice, I'm not sure that's enough even for them to get the measure of it.

Is it possible that the same can be said for the some of the courses you guys are comparing against Deal?

[Josh Stevens]

I have played deal every year in May for the last 4 or 5 years as part of the stock exchange society - we play Deal on Thursday and two rounds at Sandwich in the Friday.  Its good fun, but even that arrangement is based on the inherant assumption that Deal is very much the junior partner, and that is very unfair - so I think it is a proximity thing.  

Scale and poshness play a part - St Georges is a grand scale course and it is extemely aristocratic in its membership - most of whom hail from London and the other home counties and for whom its their second club, after Sunnindgale etc. Rye is possibly even worse in that regard, but Deal on the other hand is nice and compact and much more of a local club for local people.

While I admit RSG is quite an experience, I invariably find Deal far more interesting and enjoyable to play.
Friends of mine play the Halford Hewitt every year at the same two courses and in general their view is the same - RSG has the name, but Deal is the far tougher test, especially in the wind.

Life is never fair I suppose.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Since I was called out by name, I'll try to explain my reasoning.

First of all, I probably underrated Deal in The Confidential Guide.  I just happen to have gone back over the book this weekend, cataloguing the ratings and adding ratings for the 250+ courses I've seen since the book was written [just in case I ever want to do anything with them], and I realized that Deal fit much more easily with the other courses rated 7 than 6.  In fact, generally, I found that I tended to underrate the UK courses I saw back in 1982 compared to the rest of the world.  I must be turning soft in my old age.

Still, a 7 on the Doak scale is not a slam dunk Top 100 in the World course ... I've got about 80 courses at 8 or higher, and about another 100 courses at 7.  So, why don't I rate Deal an 8?

1.  It's been years and years since I've been there, but I have played the course, twice.
2.  It's partly the neighbors -- I clearly prefer Sandwich and Rye, and I didn't give Sandwich a 9 when I wrote the book, though I believe I did in the first edition.
3.  The sea wall really detracts from the aesthetics.
4.  Perhaps partly because of #1, where I feel the course falls short is in the number of really exciting, memorable holes.  Machrihanish may not be nearly as consistent, but there are a bunch of holes on the front nine that I'm just itching to play again.  How many would you credit for Deal?  I've only got a couple.

In spite of the above, Deal is an excellent course, and it does have an excellent set of greens as you say.  And, honestly, I might've felt differently about it if other friends [this means you, naffer!] hadn't made me defend my reasoning already.  Once one starts making a list of reasons to keep a course off the top 100 list, it's in trouble, because most courses have "flaws", but it's really not about that at all.  Sadly, Deal just doesn't have enough reasons to put it on my list, as 100 other courses do.

P.S. to Brian Sheehy:  I'm not afraid to say that it's possible I've overlooked some of the merits of Deal, or any other course for that matter.  But I've only played Sandwich twice and Rye twice, too.  And that seems like a pretty high standard for list-making; really, how many hundreds of courses have YOU played more than twice?  And, as Peter Pallotta posted on another thread a few days ago, for how many of them did you really change your mind after the first couple of plays?

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

I don't think a judge like Tom D would need more than a single look to see the brilliance of the greens and the variety they contain.

I do, however, think many lesser judges would fail to see more than what impacted them directly in an initial play.

Everyone sees varying amounts in a single play. It was evident to me the first time around that RCP's greens contained a hell of a lot of mystery. I look for the same in every course I play and very few rival RCP, let alone match it.

EDIT -- Great post by Tom above addresses much of that.

[Sean_A]

Tom

So, it may come down to the seawall being Deal's downfall?  In hindsight, I wonder if the club contemplated integrating that wall more into the design (such as on #6) when it was built or if public access made it an impossibility from the start?

That is an interesting take comparing Machrihanish and Deal by memorable holes.  For me, memorable holes matter, but I tend to think, with the given exception of one hole (every course is allowed to have a dud), that courses are no better than their weakest parts.  Meaning, for every weak or dull hole, a really good or unique hole is nullified.  Brancaster is a good example.  There are some very cool holes on the course, but too many which just take up space for me to call it a great course.  The back nine at Machrihanish seriously drags down the overall quality of the design for me - enough that I would even come close to contemplating it for top 100.  Turnberry is another interesting example.  The course doesn't really have much in the way of outstanding holes given its huge reputation and some quite dull, but perfectly competent holes to boot.  

Deal too has a few weak design areas, well weak for me, but probably not universally accepted as weak.  Specifically, the par 3s all leave something to be desired.  The best of the lot is #4, but the gunge behind the green is rather silly.  However, as I alluded to, many people like the 3s and so I have to accept that there must be some merit to what they say.  

Balanced against that though are some fine holes.  #16 is quite a top flight par 5 for me.  #6 is a great short oar 4.  #3 could easily be a cracker with some minor tweaks.  For that matter, the 4th is just some gunge away from being a cracking par 3.  #18 too isn't far off being fantastic with some adjustments.  Many will likely disagree with me, but I think #10 is a great hole and I am always going to over-praise the great holes on average or even using poor land.  Importantly, other than #8, I can't say Deal has a dud hole.    

Ciao

[Sean_A]

I can't understand how the merits of Deal aren't abundantly obvious: great terrain (of most importance to me), good mix of holes, interesting greens and green sites.  Sure, there is some subtle stuff as well, which I think helps the course.  Why would it take more than one or two plays to get a grip?  Its fair enough if folks say something is a deal breaker, like Tom seems to be saying with the seawall, but I don't hear that sort of stuff about the course.  Also, isn't the seawall better used now with a back tee or two?  I realize this can't make up for blocking the view of The Downs, but it should help.

Ciao  

[Rich Goodale]

Once one determines which courses on any given resume are great, then virtually anything goes after that cut off line.  Turnberry fails below that cut-off for me, so does UofM.  

Thanks Sean

You make my point.
Rich

[Sean_A]

Once one determines which courses on any given resume are great, then virtually anything goes after that cut off line.  Turnberry fails below that cut-off for me, so does UofM.  

Thanks Sean

You make my point.
Rich

Rihc

Yes, to each is own, but I wonder if views don't over-influence some.  This is the only way I can explain anybody, ever, thinking Nefyn is better than Deal. 

Ciao

[Sev K-H Keil]

I disagree with Mr. Doak's 3rd point --- in my opinion, Deal's seawall makes for some of the greatest views and tee shots in golf. In fact, it has become one of my favorite features (aside from the greens and the hut, of course).

On a separate note, some of the 8, 9 and 10 rated courses have ugly caravan parks in full view and that doesn't seem to detract from the rating.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean,

The first time I visited Deal I was unimpressed. The course appeared a flat field from the clubhouse and there were no sea views from ground level to spice it up. Once I got out on the course, however, I quickly realized that the course was anything but flat, with some of the best ground for golf in England... lot's of movement without major hills or dunes to climb. As you said, the greens are truly world class.

As much as we like to think courses are judged strictly on their golfing merits, aesthetics plays a major role... which is Deal's short suit. There really is nothing overly attractive about the course or the surrounding views. Plus, the clubhouse is small and a bit austere. Yet nearly everyone who plays multiple rounds there falls in love with the place. I did, and joined as an overseas member.

Now, I don't want to see this turn into another Dismal River 201 thread, but Deal is a lot better golfing venue and experience than a good number of the courses ranked above it. Judged solely on the golf course presented Deal deserves to move way up the list. But, without the "wow" factor of sea views or massive dunes it will be tough to win over enough voters.

[Will Lozier]

4.  Perhaps partly because of #1, where I feel the course falls short is in the number of really exciting, memorable holes.  Machrihanish may not be nearly as consistent, but there are a bunch of holes on the front nine that I'm just itching to play again.  How many would you credit for Deal?  I've only got a couple.

I would say #3, #4, #6, #15, #16, & #17 at Deal are holes I rate as totally unique - I could play these 6 holes over and over again without getting at all bored.  I think many others at Deal are much more interesting than generally given credit for.  To be honest, I prefer Deal to RSG and Rye and think that both of those two great courses have weaker holes at points in their routing.

Cheers

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The first time I visited Deal I was unimpressed. The course appeared a flat field from the clubhouse and there were no sea views from ground level to spice it up. Once I got out on the course, however, I quickly realized that the course was anything but flat, with some of the best ground for golf in England... lot's of movement without major hills or dunes to climb. As you said, the greens are truly world class.

As much as we like to think courses are judged strictly on their golfing merits, aesthetics plays a major role... which is Deal's short suit. There really is nothing overly attractive about the course or the surrounding views. Plus, the clubhouse is small and a bit austere. Yet nearly everyone who plays multiple rounds there falls in love with the place. I did, and joined as an overseas member.

Now, I don't want to see this turn into another Dismal River 201 thread, but Deal is a lot better golfing venue and experience than a good number of the courses ranked above it. Judged solely on the golf course presented Deal deserves to move way up the list. But, without the "wow" factor of sea views or massive dunes it will be tough to win over enough voters.

Whitty

Deal isn't a looker, but its not ugly - certainly no uglier than swaths of American parkland courses of high repute.  I don't think the aesthetics should drag it down much, if at all.  I tend look at it in extremes - giving a bonus courses which are exceptionally attractive such as St Enodoc and knocking points down for a truly ugly place.  I don't think I ever actually knocked a course down!  The house too is alright.  There are good views of the golf from there and the facilities are fine.   I tend to do so the same for houses as beauty - Deal just holds status quo for me on both regards.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

So, it may come down to the seawall being Deal's downfall?  In hindsight, I wonder if the club contemplated integrating that wall more into the design (such as on #6) when it was built or if public access made it an impossibility from the start?

That is an interesting take comparing Machrihanish and Deal by memorable holes.  For me, memorable holes matter, but I tend to think, with the given exception of one hole (every course is allowed to have a dud), that courses are no better than their weakest parts.  Meaning, for every weak or dull hole, a really good or unique hole is nullified.  Brancaster is a good example.  There are some very cool holes on the course, but too many which just take up space for me to call it a great course.  The back nine at Machrihanish seriously drags down the overall quality of the design for me - enough that I would even come close to contemplating it for top 100.  Turnberry is another interesting example.  The course doesn't really have much in the way of outstanding holes given its huge reputation and some quite dull, but perfectly competent holes to boot.  

Deal too has a few weak design areas, well weak for me, but probably not universally accepted as weak.  Specifically, the par 3s all leave something to be desired.  The best of the lot is #4, but the gunge behind the green is rather silly.  However, as I alluded to, many people like the 3s and so I have to accept that there must be some merit to what they say.  

Balanced against that though are some fine holes.  #16 is quite a top flight par 5 for me.  #6 is a great short oar 4.  #3 could easily be a cracker with some minor tweaks.  For that matter, the 4th is just some gunge away from being a cracking par 3.  #18 too isn't far off being fantastic with some adjustments.  Many will likely disagree with me, but I think #10 is a great hole and I am always going to over-praise the great holes on average or even using poor land.  Importantly, other than #8, I can't say Deal has a dud hole.    

Ciao

Hey, I cited the sea wall as a factor -- not THE factor.  Give me a bit of credit.

We're not so far apart here, really.  I agree with your thoughts about the merits of individual holes at Machrihanish, and Turnberry, too.  Regarding Deal, 16 and 17 were the two holes I thought of as great.  #6 is a good short par 4, great I don't see.  #3 and #4 are both very good holes, but fall a bit short -- and there's another thing that hurts the course a bit for someone like me, the fact that the most storied hole from the olden days [the Sandy Parlour] is a major letdown, because it's mostly gone.

In the end, the difference between us is your idea that "the course is no better than its weakest parts."  When I'm DESIGNING a course I tend to think that way, but when I'm deciding whether I want to go back again, it's the strengths of the courses that I dwell on, not their weaknesses. 

Indeed, I get perturbed when people commenting on a course fall back on the same tired boilerplate criticisms of a course [lack of variety in the par-3's, varying wind directions, weak finishing hole] and fail to appreciate the strengths, as so many do.  For example, just below, Will says Rye "has weaker holes at points in the routing," but there are about a dozen really exciting holes there, which is more than most courses could ever dream of.

[Michael Whitaker]

After looking over the courses I have played on the Links 100 list I would put Deal at or better than Shoreacres, Portmarnock, Walton Heath, Liverpool and Porthcawl. If they are top 100 courses Deal definitely deserves to be there.