Dismal River II Routing

[Phil McDade]

Tom (and others who have been there):

From my admittedly amateur reading of the topo map, it looks like a few of the par 3s -- 5 and 11 certainly, perhaps 3 as well -- are of the classic links-style "dune-top to dune-top" par 3s you find in the UK (and elsewhere, perhaps). Was that deliberate, or simply how the routing and holes worked as you were laying out the course?

The drives at 9 and 10 over that chasm look particularly cool! As do those at 12 and 17.

[Ben Sims]

Tom (and others who have been there):

From my admittedly amateur reading of the topo map, it looks like a few of the par 3s -- 5 and 11 certainly, perhaps 3 as well -- are of the classic links-style "dune-top to dune-top" par 3s you find in the UK (and elsewhere, perhaps). Was that deliberate, or simply how the routing and holes worked as you were laying out the course?

The drives at 9 and 10 over that chasm look particularly cool! As do those at 12 and 17.

Phil,

9 tee shot is pretty cool.  A hard running cut will be the preferred play.  The backdrop into big horsehoe while having onlookers at the gathering area around 1 tee, 8 green and 9 tee will be on of the highlights of the round IMO. 

Tom, Don and Zach know much more than me, but the par 3's do a nice job of breaking up some terrain.  Though both par 3's on the front go down and up, they should play significantly different based on length and hole shape.  Plus #3 will have on of the more fearsome hazards in North America on the right of the green in the form of a natively planted 20-ft-deep chasm. 

In my opinion, the reason you see many older courses go from high ground to high ground with a par 3 is because the ground traversed between in often to abrupt or severe for a fairway to be routed through.  This isn't the case with #3, but certainly with #5 and #11, the terrain drops and rises fairly abruptly in between. 

[Lester George]

David,

I think the compilation of good/great holes would far outweigh the start and ending point of the journey for most architects.  In the grand scheme of things (for me anyway) the proximity of the 18th green to the 1st tee has seldom dictated the final routing. 

My best case-in-point would probably be Kinloch Golf Club where the 1st green is 750 yards from the 18th green.  The fact that the distance is taken up with 450 yards of lake frontage, the 19th hole, the clubhouse and the shortgame practicility probably makes it all less noticiable.  In the 11 years since opening, I don't think I have heard any real negative comments about it because the players and caddies are "shuttled" back across to the house and the trip is very pleasing. 

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Lester:

Thanks for chiming in.

I had forgotten that your 18th green at Kinloch was a long way from the clubhouse, too -- probably because in the several threads I've read about the course here, nobody has mentioned that as a negative!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Those contour lines are 10-foot intervals, so there are some big slopes, as in #17 fairway. 

Those slopes on 17 appear to go sideways....kinda like #11 at Rock Creek in scale?

[Eric Smith]

Those contour lines are 10-foot intervals, so there are some big slopes, as in #17 fairway. 

Those slopes on 17 appear to go sideways....kinda like #11 at Rock Creek in scale?

Scott,

Here is a pic from the start of the fairway:



And one from behind the green looking back:

[Tom_Doak]

Those contour lines are 10-foot intervals, so there are some big slopes, as in #17 fairway. 

Those slopes on 17 appear to go sideways....kinda like #11 at Rock Creek in scale?

Scott:

I hadn't really thought of 17 as similar to the 11th at Rock Creek.  The tee shot is sharply uphill over a partially treed bank ... it's about as far uphill as the tee shot for the 18th at Riviera.  But if you drive to the right, the ball will go bounding down to a much lower elevation and a very different angle into the green -- a more level shot where it's easier to aim away from the bank at the right of the green.  Hard to tell which will be the preferred angle of approach, as we haven't built #17 green yet, but I'm hoping it's one of those things where not everyone agrees on the best way to play the hole.

[Lester George]

Tom,

You are welcome to come see (and play) Kinloch and be my guest when you get to the area.  Just give me a heads-up.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

You are welcome to come see (and play) Kinloch and be my guest when you get to the area.  Just give me a heads-up.

Lester

Lester:

I might be close to Kinloch in a couple of weeks ... but not your course, the Nicklaus course in New Zealand.

I'll get to yours someday.  It would  be easier if it were on the way to China, though.  I won't see the East Coast too much this summer.

[Lester George]

Tom,

Safe travels.

L

[Dan Herrmann]

Last time I checked, the clubhouse at Sand Hills is a loooong way from the clubhouse.  Hmm.... 

I'm fortunate enough to have been on the ground touring the routing.  The map just doesn't do it justice.  This is one friggin' awesome routing.  It really does the ability to overwhelm the senses.   

PS - You want to see cool?  Wait till you see the first par 3.  A recovery shot from the right of the green will be quite memorable.

[Ross Harmon]

When does the Doak Dismal open?!?

[John Kavanaugh]

When does the Doak Dismal open?!?

That is an interesting question when concerning a new course.  I played all 18 holes last year. The official opening will be sometime in 2013.

A couple of interesting points is that I played both Ballyneal and Awarri Dunes sooner than you would want a closed minded opinionated nonmember to play.  Thank God I am not an opinionator because I loved both courses despite the obvious need to grow in a tad longer.

I don't think Awarri will ever recover from the early opinionators disenfranchisements.

[Tom_Doak]

When does the Doak Dismal open?!?

That is an interesting question when concerning a new course.  I played all 18 holes last year. The official opening will be sometime in 2013.

A couple of interesting points is that I played both Ballyneal and Awarri Dunes sooner than you would want a closed minded opinionated nonmember to play.  Thank God I am not an opinionator because I loved both courses despite the obvious need to grow in a tad longer.

I don't think Awarri will ever recover from the early opinionators disenfranchisements.

We've got to get the course built, before we can talk about when it will be open.

As for Awarii Dunes, how will they ever recover their image if you keep misspelling the name of the place? 

[John Kavanaugh]

When does the Doak Dismal open?!?

That is an interesting question when concerning a new course.  I played all 18 holes last year. The official opening will be sometime in 2013.

A couple of interesting points is that I played both Ballyneal and Awarri Dunes sooner than you would want a closed minded opinionated nonmember to play.  Thank God I am not an opinionator because I loved both courses despite the obvious need to grow in a tad longer.

I don't think Awarri will ever recover from the early opinionators disenfranchisements.

Did they open it too soon or just allow too many folk to opine on it based on preview plays...

I was the first person to utilize Awarii's stay and play package.  I was happy with the experience so have a problem with saying that they opened too soon.  Now my friends were a different story.  We drove out to the course the night before we played and they didn't even want to tee off in the morning but I had the keys to the car.  It's not all the owners, magazines, raters or general golfing publics fault. They needed the money and I needed someplace to sleep and play on the way to Dismal.

Maybe I will stop by again this year, with a different set of friends, because I still find the course a better fit for me than Wild Horse.  I'm doing the Bayside stay and play for the 5th Major.

[RJ_Daley]

JK, while I rarely think I get exactly what you are driving at.... I think I would disagree with a notion that new grow-in courses are necessarily hurt by opinionators who experience them before optimally grown-in, as opposed to any course fully grown-in or not that may suffer from closed minded opinionated members or non-members expressing their reaction to playing courses and the conditions they find them on their one preview.

As long as one opines, and makes it clear that they formed an opinion when the course was not in optimal conditions, but can speak to the bones of what is there, then I think it is part of the risk one takes to invite anyone to have a preview, because you can't prevent them from writing or talking and expressing their opinions.  If you have a course that simply isn't ready for review or opinion, don't let anyone near it! 

But, that is not how this new era of golf course architecture and development works.  TD is IMHO, the master at teasing out there a preview.  I remember very well the run-up to Pac Dunes and BallyNeal, and the preview excursions many contributors here made to the discussion of those courses, when they were no where near fully grown in.  But, as the saying goes; 'it is what it is'.   If it has negatives, aside from maintenance grow-in, and if the opinionator makes it clear that negatives are described, APART FROM CONDITIONS OF GROW-IN, then the developer and archie are putting themselves up for the critique, and the chips fall as they may. 

Developers and archies use us, as much as we may abuse them with a negative comment, after a so-called 'preview' round, if that invite was extended, and no gentleman's or even written agreement is made for "no comment".  But, 'no comment' is exactly what the developers and archies don't seem to want.  They embrace the buzz.  It is a two edged sword, IMHO.  There is also the consideration of ethics.  If one is invited, and is not asked specifically not to comment, or encouraged to comment for the buzz factor, one still needs to apply ethics and disclose things like the turf was no where near grown in, no sand in Bs, and rough still not grubbed out, etc. 

Closed minded is a negative and most of us know that when we see it in opinions.  But, opinionated and informed, with fair disclosures is why we come here to discuss... isn't it?

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:

It is indeed a double-edged sword, but it all depends on how you present the condition of the course to early visitors.  If you say up front that this is a "preview" round and the course isn't really ready yet, then you don't have to put a gag order on people about what the conditioning was like.  But, as soon as you say you're "open" to outside players [and particularly to paying customers], then it's open season for people to go in there and complain about the conditioning if it wasn't as perfect as they expect of a new facility.

The expectations for conditioning of a new course are crazy today, but they are the legacy of all the "Best New" campaigns over the past twenty years -- a legacy of developers spending $$$$ to make a good first impression in their effort to sell lots quickly.

Somehow Bandon Dunes has had the best of both worlds, managing to charge people to play preview rounds without them having high expectations for the conditioning [green speeds in particular].

[Chris Johnston]

Grow-in is important and needs to be closely managed and monitored.  Far, far more important to me than rushing and getting "it" wrong.  With the warm and dry winter and the still very dry today, Tom and I have agreed that we will do (shape plant and irrigate) the remainder of the greens this summer, but plant only the front 9 fairways this year.   Reality is, anything more would be risky if we see another dry winter so we will be taking proper time to do it right.  Given the history here, doing it right the first time is at the top of my list.

[John Kavanaugh]

Grow-in is important and needs to be closely managed and monitored.  Far, far more important to me than rushing and getting "it" wrong.  With the warm and dry winter and the still very dry today, Tom and I have agreed that we will do (shape plant and irrigate) the remainder of the greens this summer, but plant only the front 9 fairways this year.   Reality is, anything more would be risky if we see another dry winter so we will be taking proper time to do it right.  Given the history here, doing it right the first time is at the top of my list.

Great news. One question, will you do the first nine holes or just the eight on the other side of the road?

[Tom_Doak]

John:

We are planning on building #9.  It's sort of on the way back to the clubhouse, anyway. 

Meanwhile, by concentrating on the upper holes this year, the six holes where we built greens last year will be construction-free ... so they should be playable by late summer, just with the native grasses in the fairways.  We might go ahead and build a lot of the bunkers this summer, though.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

We are planning on building #9.  It's sort of on the way back to the clubhouse, anyway. 

Meanwhile, by concentrating on the upper holes this year, the six holes where we built greens last year will be construction-free ... so they should be playable by late summer, just with the native grasses in the fairways.  We might go ahead and build a lot of the bunkers this summer, though.

An interesting choice considering the front nine consists of the best golf holes while the back is the more exhilarating. If the question of selling memberships was under consideration I may have reversed the sequence.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

We are planning on building #9.  It's sort of on the way back to the clubhouse, anyway. 

Meanwhile, by concentrating on the upper holes this year, the six holes where we built greens last year will be construction-free ... so they should be playable by late summer, just with the native grasses in the fairways.  We might go ahead and build a lot of the bunkers this summer, though.

An interesting choice considering the front nine consists of the best golf holes while the back is the more exhilarating. If the question of selling memberships was under consideration I may have reversed the sequence.

John:

Understood, but once we seed the fairways, the members will have to stay off them for 2-3 months while the grass gets going.  This way, everybody can still go out and tour/play the back nine while the front is growing in.  And by fall, you'll pretty much be looking at the whole course, though we will still have to grass the fairways on the back next year. 

This way also gives us more time to figure out the bridge on #10.

[Doug Siebert]

Last time I checked, the clubhouse at Sand Hills is a loooong way from the clubhouse.  Hmm.... 

I'm fortunate enough to have been on the ground touring the routing.  The map just doesn't do it justice.  This is one friggin' awesome routing.  It really does the ability to overwhelm the senses.   

PS - You want to see cool?  Wait till you see the first par 3.  A recovery shot from the right of the green will be quite memorable.

I agree Dan.  I've seen these topos of courses posted a million times on GCA, but they mean nothing to me.  Even after seeing the site in person last summer looking at the topo is like reading a book over my shoulder via a mirror.  Takes too much thought to convert what I see on the topo to what I saw in person.  Guess I'll never be cut out to an architect, even if I did hit the next giant Mega Millions jackpot!

[Kalen Braley]

This thread has been a terrific read and its been great to see the various parties chime in and provide great info.

As a small plug for the 5th Major, I very much look forward to printing off the topo overlay that Jim has prepared and use it while taking a walk of the place to better improve my map reading skills.  I'm guessing the best way to learn is to match what you see in person to a handheld copy of the topo to "burn it into the brain".

Chris, do you envision a summer or fall opening in 2013?

[Chris Johnston]

Kalen - I think we can get the front 9 open mid to late next summer, but it the grow-in must go well.  We learned some great lessons over the winter and one is we must be patient.  I envision all holes being open in early to mid 2014.

Bring some "dirt" shoes the the 5th Major - then we can do some of Doak walkabouts.