[JNC Lyon]

Tom Doak, Architect

[PCCraig]

.

[Kalen Braley]

So they aren't going across the river after all?

Or was Chris not wanting the course to cross the road?

P.S.  Looks like the tee shot on 9 is where it crosses over.

[JNC Lyon]

Kalen, yes, the course crosses the road on 9.  I don't think there were ever plans to go across the river.

Pat, great post.  Very thorough.

[Tom_Doak]

Those contour lines are 10-foot intervals, so there are some big slopes, as in #17 fairway.  Lighter shades are higher elevations, darker shades getting lower ... most of the site falls from the south toward the river on the north end.

I'm headed back out there a week from today to start building the front nine greens.  We are hoping to knock out nine greens in a week, before I have to head over to New Zealand.

[Ben Sims]

An obvious observation, but this thread is proof that maps do great sites no justice.

[Kalen Braley]

It looks ballynealish with the free flowing tee boxes.

Also 7 looks like it could be a doosey of a table top green if I'm reading the topo right.

Overall, looks like there could be some very interesting "bite off as much as you dare chew" holes.

[David_Elvins]

Can a course with an 18th green 500 yards from the first tee be taken seriously?

What is the best course in the world with this "feature"? 

[Tim Martin]

Pat, great post.  Very thorough.

 

[Ben Sims]

Can a course with an 18th green 500 yards from the first tee be taken seriously?

What is the best course in the world with this "feature"? 

Only if you like really good golf holes.

[Michael George]

David - I think that is an interesting question.  IMHO, it really depends on the type of course.  If it was a "country club" with a great deal of everyday member play, I don't think it would work.  For instance, I cannot imagine places like Oakmont, Oakland Hills, etc.. not having the 1st and 18th tee going and coming from the club houses.  However, I likewise think that remote clubs likes Sand Hills, Ballyneal or Dismal River can get away with it because of the rustic, prairie feel to the places.  The sense of adventure is part and parcel to the golf experience at these clubs and because of that, I think you can have long drives to the 1st tee like you do at Sand Hills.   However, I think for the normal club, you are probably right.  Other clubs where I know there is quite a distance or barrier where it feels like no connection between the 1st tee and 18th green are:

Pebble Beach
Loch Lomond
Harbour Town

[David_Elvins]

Only if you like really good golf holes.

Ben,

I think most people on here realise that a good golf course is more than a collection of good golf holes.  The holes have to flow together, there has to be a rhythm to the course and it has to take the golfer on a journey.  

I would have thought that finishing your round where you started it is an important part of the 'journey' and important to the golfing experience.  

[Tom_Doak]

Can a course with an 18th green 500 yards from the first tee be taken seriously?

What is the best course in the world with this "feature"?  

I am confident this course will be taken seriously.

I don't know the exact answer to your question, though.  Pebble Beach and Harbour Town are probably 300 yards from 18th green to 1st tee, for similar reasons as Dismal River ... they wanted to finish close to the water.  My Black Forest course has them farther apart than this, for sure; it's not a great course but I don't think that's why.

Really, though, on this terrain, we thought it was better to play downhill more than uphill.  And since the clubhouse was going to be far away from the start and finish of the course ... due to lots that were sold and terrain factors ... we figured it didn't really make any difference whether the start and finish were in the same place.

P.S.  It baffles me why people try to invent new rules as to why they won't like something.

[JESII]

Tom,

I don't think having the clubhouse in relative proximity to the start and finish of the course is a new rule...I'd say it's a common expectation.

I'm sure you considered that and decided the holes you would build where you did will make the best course/experience. Did their relative locations not occur to you?

[Joe_Tucholski]

What is the fairway finger on the left side of #8?

What is the carry over the non-fairway areas on #7?  Maybe it's the natural areas on the fairway but my eye keeps going down to that area.  It looks  The LZ for #6 and #7 seems like it might be a good place to for slicers to get to know other golfers on the course.

[David_Elvins]

P.S.  It baffles me why people try to invent new rules as to why they won't like something.

Sorry Tom, I am not trying to find a way not to like the course, I just thought that an important part of the psychology of a golf course is finishing your journey (near) where you started it.  as to how much of a factor that is in the experience, I have not much of an idea as courses that have played that finished a long way from the start have been crap for a multitude of other reasons. Hence my question.  


 

Really, though, on this terrain, we thought it was better to play downhill more than uphill.

I find this a really interesting thought.  Would you care to expand on your reasoning/thoughts on this.  Was there something specifically about the terrain led you to think this more so than on other courses?  

PS. Thanks for the examples.  Harbour Town is over 400 yards.  Pebble Beach though is under 200 and with good sightlines to the clubhouse from both the 18th green and 1st tee, as well as good sightlines through the clubhouse, I have always thought it was relatively well connected.

[Ben Sims]

Only if you like really good golf holes.

Ben,

I think most people on here realise that a good golf course is more than a collection of good golf holes.  The holes have to flow together, there has to be a rhythm to the course and it has to take the golfer on a journey.  

I would have thought that finishing your round where you started it is an important part of the 'journey' and important to the golfing experience.  

David,

My response to your post was as measured as your initial comment.  But your reply now is much better and makes a more sense.  I still don't understand why the golf course wouldn't be taken seriously and why you would make that assertion from a topo map.  You say that

"The holes have to flow together, there has to be a rhythm to the course and it has to take the golfer on a journey."

 I would argue that this routing does that and more.  In fact, I might argue that because the golf course pays so much attention to the journey and how the walk unfolds through that epic terrain, that it doesn't need to finish where it starts.

The other aspect is that the first hole is very far from the clubhouse and and accommodations.  Players will be being shuffled to the first tee by a vehicle of some type and then back again after their round.  Even of you're walking the golf course, you're getting a ride home at the end.  Why not have the best walk and routing of holes you can without working under the constraint of returning to the first tee?

[Don_Mahaffey]

What is the fairway finger on the left side of #8?

What is the carry over the non-fairway areas on #7?  Maybe it's the natural areas on the fairway but my eye keeps going down to that area.  It looks  The LZ for #6 and #7 seems like it might be a good place to for slicers to get to know other golfers on the course.

Joe,
The irrigation main line drops down to #8 through that little finger and we thought it might be a nice turfed maintenance path as well for maint equip to get from the upper holes to #8. A little shortcut that allows them to move from hole to hole without traveling through the 4th grn, 7th grn, 8th tee area.

The LZs on 6 and 7 aren't that close together.

[Mike Hogan]

Tom,
It looks like the revine between #9 and #10 is very deep. What is the walk like from 9 green/10 tee, to #10 fairway?
Is there a bridge being built?

[Kyle Harris]

Does the golf experience really need to end at the 18th green?

I can imagine a few settings where a longer walk back to the clubhouse from the 18th green can serve as a nice decompression time following the round.

[Morgan Clawson]

I like what I think I see!

Is that a massive double/combined fairway for 14 and 15?

Does 16 have a left to right sloping clover leaf shaped green?

Does 17 green slope from front to back?

[Jim Colton]

I took a stab of overlaying the routing on top of the aerial. Looks great!

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much, JNC.

I'm not any good at reading topos, even with help/guidance.  But I think even I can see what Tom and his team have done with the bunkering, and I like it very much -- variety, restraint, naturalness, and occasionally even a tumbling excess. What I also think I see is the overall quality of what I'd call "expansive isolation", as opposed to the "focused isolation" of a place like Pine Valley.  That feeling, it seems to me, is essential for a course like DR II, since it is a quality that is inherent in/defines the region.  And the meandering routing seems to fit very well with (to echo) that feeling, and the free flow of rivers and wind and animals across the land there. If a routing over a topo can be said to "look lovely" this one sure does. I think Tom and his team have once again been in/with the Tao. 

Peter  

[Tim Martin]

Does the golf experience really need to end at the 18th green?

I can imagine a few settings where a longer walk back to the clubhouse from the 18th green can serve as a nice decompression time following the round.

+1

[Eric Smith]

Tom,

I was telling CJ what excited me the most with the routing plan is seeing sand in the big bunker on 3!

Good luck with the greens construction next week. I hope you'll save yourself a bit of work for say a last week in June visit. 


Jim,

Nice work!

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