[John Kavanaugh]

The buildings shown are the maintenance facility and employee barracks. They are hidden from the course. One of my favorite aspects of the finish is the view of the clubhouse at what must be a mile in the distance.

Does anyone know where Doak's Den will be built?

[Jim Colton]

6940 yards sound about right?

[David_Elvins]

I would argue that this routing does that and more.  In fact, I might argue that because the golf course pays so much attention to the journey and how the walk unfolds through that epic terrain, that it doesn't need to finish where it starts.

The other aspect is that the first hole is very far from the clubhouse and and accommodations.  Players will be being shuffled to the first tee by a vehicle of some type and then back again after their round.  Even of you're walking the golf course, you're getting a ride home at the end.  Why not have the best walk and routing of holes you can without working under the constraint of returning to the first tee?

Good points Ben.  

Obviously Tom, Chris and Co. prioritised other factors over a returning routing, allowing for the special factors unique (or relatively unique) to the site.  The proof of the pudding will be in playing, so to speak.  It will be interesting to see whether it turns out to be an issue and whether the compromise ends up as a big one or a little one.  

very few good architects have been game to make a similar compromise - As far as I am aware, MacKenzie never did it, or Colt, or Thomas, or MacDonald, or Ross, or Thomson, or Coore, or Hanse.  The obvious retort that "they never had a site/club like this," but I think that is a bit flippant.  It is either a brave decision or stupid decision.  Tom's track record suggests that it is brave rather than stupid, but it will be interesting to see if this proves true.

[Carl Nichols]

IIRC, Lost Dunes finishes fairly far from where it starts, but that's because of the location of the first tee, which is not close to the clubhouse, while 18 finishes at the clubhouse.  Will the 18th at DR II be close to anything? (Like a few others, I think that it can be nice for 18 not to finish on the steps of the clubhouse.)

[RJ_Daley]

I forgot what CJ said about eventual construction of a bridge off 10t.  It is a pretty steep and deep crossing.  The tee shot that was most disorienting and tricked me in the raw state the routing and construction progress was in, was 13T.  My eye and assumption went on a direct line to the green, which is down into a bit of a valley, then runs a ridge on the left and looks natural as a shot up to the greensite.  When I was there, the native grass land-pasture was green and not too high along that line and I thought they were going to turn over some prairie and run the FW along there.  But noooo.  I was surprised that the FW swings somewhat partially blind around the high left side.  Once you get over there, it is a nice view into the green.  

Walkers will get their heart pumping ascending to the first couple of holes.  It is a mighty view up into those high sand hill peaks beyond the green sites.  But, it adds to the sense of intimate golf club setting, as you see so much of the other holes on the course from those highland holes.  You will likely be out there playing with buddies, and you can keep track of them to some extent and revel in where you see them in relation to how you will become acquainted with the best positions on the holes to be, and where you will know their goose is cooked.  

I could see where another modest structure, a few comfy chairs, veranda and some sort of serve yourself beers sited up above 18 green, would serve a good purpose for those needing a break before going another 9 to tee off on nearby 10T or walk around 9 to get back over to 1T.  Either way, that is a hike up from 18G, and one would logically need a break-breather and refueling.

Once the course is playing steady, I will be very interested how people see the rigor of the walk.  In one sense it seems the most intimate and shortest-confined of the sand hill course offerings.  But, I think with the elevation changes through the entire course, one will feel it in the legs if you aren't in great walking shape.  But, it will be a happy kind of tired...  

[John Kavanaugh]

The course starts and finishes in the Sand Hills. This is the real deal, not some 1/8th scale geological pimple, so until you feel, smell and experience the scope of the land you will never understand the spiritual nature of nor a beginning or end. You are just there and that is enough.

[RJ_Daley]

BTW, it has been a long time since I was there, but isn't the distance at Kiawah TOC from 18G to 1T a pretty long haul?  Also, the original Sutton Bay had a pretty circuitous route to get back to 1 from 18.  

[Eric Smith]

The tee shot that was most disorienting and tricked me in the raw state the routing and construction progress was in, was 13T.  My eye and assumption went on a direct line to the green, which is down into a bit of a valley, then runs a ridge on the left and looks natural as a shot up to the greensite.  When I was there, the native grass land-pasture was green and not too high along that line and I thought they were going to turn over some prairie and run the FW along there.  But noooo.  I was surprised that the FW swings somewhat partially blind around the high left side.  Once you get over there, it is a nice view into the green.  

13 Tee

[Sean Leary]

If most people take carts then where it ends is less of a big deal. That being said, my home course has a long walk in after 18 and it sucks.

[RJ_Daley]

yup Eric, that shows my disorientation quite well.  The FW is even more blind into the saddle headed left than I remember.  Since they already had a nice start at growing in and working the green site, and the cow paths up the back side dunes are striking, I just felt like the hole went that  away. 

John, is it enough?  Would you feel the same way if you were staying in a tent or sleeping in a van down by the river, cooking flapjacks and side pork, and brewing coffee over a camp fire?  Just golf in the secluded sand hills; creature comforts not required?   

[John Kavanaugh]

Dick,

I would think that when camping doing things by the book would ensure a safe trip. Not a fan.

[Tom_Doak]

very few good architects have been game to make a similar compromise - As far as I am aware, MacKenzie never did it, or Colt, or Thomas, or MacDonald, or Ross, or Thomson, or Coore, or Hanse.  The obvious retort that "they never had a site/club like this," but I think that is a bit flippant.  It is either a brave decision or stupid decision.  Tom's track record suggests that it is brave rather than stupid, but it will be interesting to see if this proves true.

David:

I was introduced to this idea a very long time ago, and always believed it would have possibilities for courses in "big country" terrain.  It was an easy call to pull it out of the bag on this site, because there were great holes down by the river but no very good way back up ... and because the clubhouse is going to be a mile away regardless of where we finished the 18th. 

I believe a deck down by the river [on a little knoll behind the 18th green] will be the ideal place to finish, and have a drink while you are waiting for someone to come and take you home [or back up to the first tee].  It would just be a ridiculous place to start!

I did walk and carry my bag to play 18 holes twice in August of last year.

[JC Urbina]

Tom
Who introduced this idea to you several years ago

[Steve_Lovett]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

I've seen it in a few courses through the years (11-14 at Augusta Ntl comes first to mind) but it seems more fashionable now.

Why is that?

[Neil_Crafter]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

I've seen it in a few courses through the years (11-14 at Augusta Ntl comes first to mind) but it seems more fashionable now.

Why is that?

Steve
The same question came to mind for me. Does this mean that there is a lot more maintained turf to be cared for than if there were individual, traditional tee blocks?

Tom
We have done an initial routing for a project on great waterfront land where our 18th green will probably be around 250m from the clubhouse. Trying to get any closer just compromises the finishing hole severely and if the walk is pleasant then not a bad way of decompressing after finishing I reckon.

[David_Elvins]

Does this mean that there is a lot more maintained turf to be cared for than if there were individual, traditional tee blocks?

Not sure the net gain loss but the extra turf mean greater spread of traffic and less remediation of turf wear + less maintenance on roughs, paths etc. 

[Sean_A]

Its an interesting philosophical debate as to the importance of the house to the 1st tee and 18th green (and in modern philosophy 9 green and 10 tee).  The concept of isolating the course from the house is not new, but I am not sure its ever been looked upon as ideal.  Personally, I like to see the course from the house and finish near the house.  These are essential ingredients in good design and help to extend the day especially in a club or large group outing atmosphere - I don't think this is debatable.  That said, there are always exceptions.  In the case of Dismal II the house is forever away and so I can't see why its important to have the start and finish near each other. 

I find the little tee fingers interesting and see them as an extension of the old idea of teeing off next to the previous cup assuming the grass is kept short and the terrain doesn't cut viewing the previous green.

I also like how a decent number of the bunkers are really centreline, but because of the angles of play rather than straight away in your face.  Mind you, it wouldn't hurt to have a few more as on #4. 

It also appears as though there aren't any crazy holes using the elevation changes harshly.  Tom, was this a conscious decision or perhaps I have this wrong?

Ciao

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

I've seen it in a few courses through the years (11-14 at Augusta Ntl comes first to mind) but it seems more fashionable now.

Why is that?

I don't know about the Rio course or Ballyneal, but one reason the holes flow into one another at DR II is so a gang mower can easily get around the course. You either connect the holes with paths, or with turf. In this case its practical for the mower to cut the tees on the way to the next hole. Once grown in, I think you'll see two cuts, greens, and everything else.

While from above the mowing lines look artistic, on the ground the turf connectors serve a very important purpose.

[Tom_Doak]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

I've seen it in a few courses through the years (11-14 at Augusta Ntl comes first to mind) but it seems more fashionable now.

Why is that?

As Don explained, part of the reason for this at Dismal River is to allow maintenance equipment [and potentially golf carts] to get around from one hole to the next with as few paths as possible.  It's cart paths I really hate, more than carts themselves, and on an open site like Dismal it's pretty hard to hide cart paths except if you can figure out how not to build many of them.

We also like the playability of having fairway come back close to the tee on many holes [because you never know how strong the wind might be out there], and the seamlessness of walking on turf straight from a green to the next tee.  Additionally, as we've found at Ballyneal, the latter feature allows players to invent tees we'd never even thought about.

The map does look cool because of all of that, but that's not the point at all ... the map is just GPS'ed from all the mowing we've done in the field to try and make things look right from the golfers' eye level.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom
Who introduced this idea to you several years ago

Jim:

The concept is pretty similar to the "base camp golf" idea you and I discussed en route from New Mexico to Apache Stronghold years ago.  I liked your name for it.

The first place I ever saw something like that was at Boyne Mountain in Michigan, years ago -- it's a ski hill, and you take a cart up to the top of the hill and slalom back down for the golf course as well as for skiing.  I had to borrow the same idea at Black Forest, when our client David Smith decided he didn't want to build a second pro shop for the second course, if we could get the first tee relatively close to the existing one ... but he'd sold off too much property years before to get the 18th hole back to the same spot.  There was no controversy about that with Boyne Mountain nearby.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom (or anyone else who knows the property well),

You say you have walked a couple of rounds carrying your clubs - how is it as a walk? Just about doable or comfortably doable and really no need for a cart? I know the Nicklaus course is reputed to be very hard to walk (and a cart is definitely needed unless your name is JNC Lyon) - would you say that your course is significantly better in this respect? How would you compare it in this sense to other courses you have done?

Cheers,
Brian.

CJ: Will there be a half way hut?

Brian:

For me, the walk was entirely comfortable.  I think I could walk 36 holes a day there.  But I can't compare it to the Nicklaus course since I have never walked the Nicklaus course.

[Chris Johnston]

Brian & all:

A more simple halfway house (think Ben's porch) will be in the area of the "seahorses head (the 8th on the map reminds of a seahorse) or between #1 and #18.  We may put a gazebo off of 18 green.  Today, we are focused 100% on the course, and we won't compromise the course for anything else.   I'm not even thinking about buildings these days, other than to ensure we have power to where they may be located.

We plan to stage a few carts off of 18 green for the walkers to return to #1 or the clubhouse.  Like Sand Hills and our own Nicklaus course, the Doak course is located a mile, or so, from the clubhouse.  The site is very walkable - Lately, I"ve begun walking 9 with the Dismal Dogs each morning for much needed exercise.  The Nicklaus course is no more difficult a walk than Sand Hills.

Ending where you begin is fine, but I imagine most every course had to in some way compromise the routing to meet the paradigm.  Tom and I agreed that the routing was the highest and only priority, far more important than having to "compromise" to complete a loop.  I believe it allowed Tom to "find" the best holes knit together and a very memorable finish.  I would rather do it this way than have a few "ho hum" holes.  To me, a simple building can compromise a routing and, again, part of what made Sand Hills so great was there were no buildings on the course until 2 potty stops were added 10 or so years after completion.  Sand Hills was "all about" the routing to the point where even maintenance is close to a half mile from the course.

[Jud_T]

If one is getting shuttled to and from the course to begin with I'm not sure what the big deal about starting and ending at "the house" is, particularly if it's a second course and "the house" is a snack bar/toilet.  I'd much rather have the great finish down by the river.  It's not even close IMO...Besides, us old fat guys are plus handicaps at walking downhill...

[Howard Riefs]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

Also at Doak's Blue course at Streamsong

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50968.msg1162203.html#msg1162203

[Tom_Doak]

I've seen this concept of mowing holes naturalistically into one another several times recently - here, Ballyneal, and the Rio Olympic Course. 

Also at Doak's Blue course at Streamsong

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50968.msg1162203.html#msg1162203

Howard:

We've done this A LOT over the years, from Pacific Dunes to Stone Eagle to Old Macdonald.  Heck, even High Pointe had a couple of holes which got mowed together [from #3 green to #4 tee].  It really is not anything new, but people are paying more attention to it now.

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