Harbourtowne

« **on:** April 13, 2012, 02:22:28 PM »

Looking at several threads over the last few weeks with some good discussion about the tyranny of trees. What is the current thinking about this course? The stand alone tree on 16 comes to mind along with the rows guarding the approaches to some holes on the back nine.

Does it need a pruning?

« **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2012, 02:43:46 PM »

I have never felt that trees automatically should be felled. They are hazards in the air. I have played Harbour Town many times and have had to hit many low runners into some of the greens or bend them around the greens. Granted some courses like Oakmont were built without trees but not so at Harbortowne. My son's course in MN is pretty tight, which is one of its defenses. Not every course should have fifty yard wide fairways so you can get "the right angle".

« **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2012, 02:44:22 PM »

They could call these guys..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxtBcmWF8FE&feature=related

« **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2012, 03:16:59 PM »

Got this in my e-mail today from Links Magazine, by GCAer Tom Dunne:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/links100-course-of-the-month-harbour-town-golf-links-no-74-us4-11-2012

« **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2012, 03:29:31 PM »

Ed,

For most courses, the answer to your question would be a resounding YES. However, in the Tom Dunne article that Jim posted above, it mentions that trees were always a part of Dye's design intent at Harbour Town. Like it or not (and there seem to be many on either side of the debate), they seem to be as much a part of HT's defenses as the greens, bunkers, etc...

« **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2012, 04:52:57 PM »

I dig Harbour Town. I wouldn't want every course to be like it, though. I think the people who do not like it need to have a bit more of an open mind on the subject of narrowness and trees. Not every course has to have lots of width.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2012, 05:06:34 PM »

Quote from: matt kardash on April 13, 2012, 04:52:57 PM

I dig Harbour Town. I wouldn't want every course to be like it, though. I think the people who do not like it need to have a bit more of an open mind on the subject of narrowness and trees. Not every course has to have lots of width.

I agree 100% -- Tom Paul's Big World Theory would surely include courses like HT. I didn't even think it was *that* narrow.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2012, 06:54:26 PM »

I have to disagree with Tom Dunne. I find Harbour Town absolutely fun to play. It requires thought, imagination, and good execution. It requires great strategy. "How far and where should I hit it?" is a question that faces the player on the tee. Where can I miss it that will give me the best chance for par? The small greens demand a good short game because you are going to miss more greens that usual. It is a course I never tire of playing.

« **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:26:11 PM »

Harbour Town is really good. I am with Tommy.

It is fascinating to play and see how a tight course with small greens can be tactical and strategic. And also to note how certain features when contrasted with the small greens and tightness of the course can have such a dramatic impact. For example, the HUGE bunker on 13, the opening up of the course on 17, and the widest fairway on the PGA tour on 18. Really excellent work.

Also, you can play other courses in the area that have that tightness and small greens and see how NOT to do this genre of a course and then go to Harbour Town and see how this genre plays when it is done right.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:47:05 PM »

Harbourtowne is the spelling of the Dye course in Md. Harbour Town is the one the pros are playing this week.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:52:02 PM »

I have an emotional attachment to this lovely course because my group of buddies (60 strong) used to go to Hilton Head every year back in the day. We were there in '86 and watched the final nine of Jack's Masters victory, for example. HT was the first highly rated course I played and I didn't mind that it beat me up. I thought that's what great courses were supposed to do to chops like me!

Now, I'm of a divided mind. I still have affection for the course, the plantation and almost all of HHI, but I don't agree with using trees as defense or as vertical hazards, unless it's done very sparingly. I suppose they worry the course would be rendered defenseless to the pros if they aggressively removed the trees that block greens and create bowling alley corridors. For me, this course pulls at my heartstrings, but I wouldn't plunk down the going rate to play there anymore, especially if they still make players take a cart and keep the cart on the path. That's not golf to me. That's punishment.

When i used to play HT, i didn' know gca at all. As one poster said here one day, i wouldn't have known a Redan from a sedan! But the way I view gca these days, I think Tom Dunne's analysis is dead right.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:34:50 PM »

especially if they still make players take a cart and keep the cart on the path

Terry, this is damn shame!

One of my first walk and carry rounds was at Harbour Town. It added to the magic and really highlighted the routing/pacing of the course.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:29:03 AM »

It is a very good course. I still think it is the best in the low country. It is not a fav of the bang bang tour types that do not get position golf. The trees do help keep the ball out of peoples yards. The development aspect is the weak link in the course.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:36:14 AM »

Quote from: Tiger_Bernhardt on April 14, 2012, 12:29:03 AM

It is a very good course. I still think it is the best in the low country. It is not a fav of the bang bang tour types that do not get position golf. The trees do help keep the ball out of peoples yards. The development aspect is the weak link in the course.

Tiger have you played Long Cove?

« **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2012, 01:54:49 AM »

What does everyone think of #15?

According to Oosterhuis on CBS, it was playing as the second most difficult hole on the golf course today. You almost never see a par-five do that. Just during the 90 minutes or so I had it on, I saw a bunch of sixes.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:54:06 AM »

So here's my question, and maybe its already been addressed.

But if the course already plays tight with narrow fairways, small greens, and water-a-plenty...then why do they need so many trees to further complicate things? Is it purely because of the housing development and to "protect" the homeowners?

Seems odd that they would double down on the brutality when the small targets seem penalty enough.

P.S. I've heard them say a few times on Golf Channel now that HT is a "Jack Nicklaus course, which he did in conjunction with Pete Dye". How did history get re-written so badly on this one? Especially given that its well known on GCA.com that Jack had nothing to do with the design in an "official" sense.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:43:12 PM »

Quote from: Brian Sheehy on April 14, 2012, 01:52:42 AM

Quote from: Mac Plumart on April 13, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
especially if they still make players take a cart and keep the cart on the path

Can someone confirm if this is still the case? I have looked into a SC trip and would have included two round at Harbour Town as part of that - no way would I play 2 rounds under those conditions, however. That's not golf in my opinion.

This was the case for me during my last visit in Dec '10. A forecaddie is mandatory though so just have him drive the cart and you walk.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:50:27 PM »

Quote

"Jack Nicklaus course, which he did in conjunction with Pete Dye"

At the very least, it's the other way around, and even then what did Jack do, exactly?

I like Jack, but this seems to be a common theme with him. Desmond Muirhead gets almost no credit for Muirfield Village, yet he claims to have done the routing.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2012, 07:33:53 PM »

Nice points raised, personally I love the course and the trees. Some of shots really make you put on your thinking cap. It looks and feels very natural.

I do apologize for the spelling error, what makes it worse is I have an original print of 18 over my desk. Look at it every day to admire Linda Hartoughs work. You think I would know better.

« **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:46:14 AM »

Quote from: Matthew Rose on April 14, 2012, 12:50:27 PM

Quote
"Jack Nicklaus course, which he did in conjunction with Pete Dye"

At the very least, it's the other way around, and even then what did Jack do, exactly?

I like Jack, but this seems to be a common theme with him. Desmond Muirhead gets almost no credit for Muirfield Village, yet he claims to have done the routing.

There's no question that Dye was the designer of Harbour Town and Nicklaus the consultant, but if you read the chapter on Harbour Town in Dye's book he gives quite a bit of credit to Nicklaus. It was Nicklaus who Charles Fraser (the man who built Sea Pines Resort) originally contacted for the project.

In fact, Dye goes so far to say he would have never been involved in Harbour Town if Nicklaus hadn't introduced him (Dye) to Fraser and told Fraser that the two of them were working together. Nicklaus made something like two dozen trips to the site during construction and although he didn't consider himself the designer, Harbour Town was the first course he said he had a hand in almost every hole.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:49:55 AM »

I'm still curious about and am looking for a response to my question.

How can a website like this, with all that we "preach" condone a course like this? Its narrow and penal...everything that we love to hate about the US Open setups, or at least most of them.

So I ask again, why does a course need the extra penalty of intrusive trees when the playing corridors are already tight, the greens small, and hazards are a-plenty.

Honestly this course looks like an absolute nightmare for the average joe....

« **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »

Kalen,

As I said above, I didn't find HT that narrow. I didn't explain that statement, but what I was thinking is that often at HT the result of a wayward drive is that you can find your ball, and indeed have a playable lie and swing, but you have trees or other trouble in the way. That to me is preferable to courses where if you hit your ball offline, you're either re-teeing, dropping, or chopping out.

The 9th and 13th holes are good examples of this -- if you miss the fairway, you almost always have a swing and a playable lie, but you probably won't have a direct shot at the green/hole.

Unfortunately, there are some holes (like 15) where this isn't the case, and missing the fairway may easily result in penalty shots. And the par 3's are really hard, almost entirely because of the water hazards -- not trees.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:41:55 AM »

Quote from: Matthew Rose on April 14, 2012, 01:54:49 AM

What does everyone think of #15?

According to Oosterhuis on CBS, it was playing as the second most difficult hole on the golf course today. You almost never see a par-five do that. Just during the 90 minutes or so I had it on, I saw a bunch of sixes.

Was there for the Pro-Am on Wednesday with my family. We sat behind the 15th green and watched 5-6 groups play through. I could not see the tee or 2nd shots (at 588, narrow, and doglegging on the last third of the hole I doubt there are many going into this green in two).

The green is pushed up in front pretty significantly and slopes severely front to back and right to left....a little redan-like. Fun watching play on the green but not sure I like the hole. Seems like the play is to 1) Keep it in the fairway; 2) Keep it in the fairway; 3) Hit a safe shot to the green; get out with two putts.

The pin was on the front right tier when we were watching about 7-8 paces from the front. Watched three straight pro's hit it in front of the pin and stop it 8 feet short. Two two-putts and a Villegas three putt. It is a severe green.

I haven't played it but have walked it two years in a row at the Heritage and overall I am also not sure as an everyday Joe, it is my cup of java. But a great venue to watch the pro's in person...you get to see a lot of creative shots due to the overhanging trees. And pretty relaxed...my kids loved getting tons of autographs and my 9 year was standing on the railroad ties supporting the 16th tee looking away when Furyk walked up behind him, grabbed his shoulders and growled. He already loved Furyk anyway...too bad we didn't have the camera ready!

But the big disappointment. Pete Dye was also playing in in the Pro Am. Watched him hit a nice 200ish maybe drive off the 10th tee....pretty impressive swing at 86! But since my kids were getting autographs figured I might as well get one too. Mr. Dye ....I was very respectful....turned me down

.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 15, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »

Quote from: Carl Nichols on April 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM

Kalen,

As I said above, I didn't find HT that narrow. I didn't explain that statement, but what I was thinking is that often at HT the result of a wayward drive is that you can find your ball, and indeed have a playable lie and swing, but you have trees or other trouble in the way. That to me is preferable to courses where if you hit your ball offline, you're either re-teeing, dropping, or chopping out.

The 9th and 13th holes are good examples of this -- if you miss the fairway, you almost always have a swing and a playable lie, but you probably won't have a direct shot at the green/hole.

Unfortunately, there are some holes (like 15) where this isn't the case, and missing the fairway may easily result in penalty shots. And the par 3's are really hard, almost entirely because of the water hazards -- not trees.

Carl, I agree.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 15, 2012, 08:33:37 PM »

@ Harbor Town you have to hit golf shots, which is typical of a challenging Pete Dye layout....distance and direction...I wish the greens were more interesting.

In general, the course does not accomodate the average guy/gal...but nor does Sawgrass

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