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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2012, 11:12:52 PM »
If the courses are unfamiliar to the writer how can he make the comment 'and in conditions that usually don't suit golf'. 

Why don't you ask him?

David had you bothered to read the original thread I did address Tim, but the question re this thread was addressed to other Members to see if such comments had support.

Easier to go with the flow, suspect that’s the result of using aids rather than thinking for oneself, any thoughts ?

Melvyn

Sam
Do not worry its DT‘s way of showing his Neanderthal superior racist culture, he just has not woken up to the fact that his race is just about to become extinct. Let him have his little fleeting moments as you would not like to see a grown Neanderthal cry.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2012, 01:12:33 AM »
"The British Open is played on courses that are unfamiliar to me and in conditions that usually don't suit golf.

How many on this site are unfamiliar with TOC or any of the other traditional venues of The Open?"



Had the initial post ended here, it would have been simpler to answer yes or no to the question.

"Finally do the Members consider that these venues for The Open are not suitable for the game of golf, noting that this is the very environment that the modern game (the Scottish modern game for the last 400-600 years) started from and has since been played upon? Not to mention the basics of some of the greatest courses in the world."

Had the third paragraph not gone off on a tangent and instead, managed a question like which specific conditions are unsuitable for golf?
we might have answered sunlight/moonlight/wind/calm/rain/day/cold/warm.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2012, 01:31:08 AM »
If the courses are unfamiliar to the writer how can he make the comment 'and in conditions that usually don't suit golf'. 

Why don't you ask him?

David had you bothered to read the original thread I did address Tim, but the question re this thread was addressed to other Members to see if such comments had support.

Easier to go with the flow, suspect that’s the result of using aids rather than thinking for oneself, any thoughts ?

Melvyn

Sam
Do not worry its DT‘s way of showing his Neanderthal superior racist culture, he just has not woken up to the fact that his race is just about to become extinct. Let him have his little fleeting moments as you would not like to see a grown Neanderthal cry.

wow, just, wow
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2012, 02:59:35 AM »
One thing that cannot be denied is links golf is an almost irrelevant form of the game on the global scene. There are a handful of links courses around the globe and if it wasn't for the Open Championship 99% of golfers wouldn't even know the form of golf existed.
Cave Nil Vino

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2012, 03:35:09 AM »

Greg

Being called A leader of the ‘Blackshirts’ is not a complement, it is an insult that DT likes to use at every opportunity, yet I do not see you concerned or against the insult or come to that the rest of the Members on this site.

So let the racist have his fun, it’s only reflecting upon himself.   


Mark

Does that mean you will not be playing our links courses as they are almost irrelevant form of the game. That good news if true as it will help free up the courses like TOC for those who enjoy links golf.


Ronald

Next post you make would you like me to edit it for you, in fact why not just get me to write it for you.

As for going off in a tangent, you seem to forget that Links golf is our game and has been for centuries, our greatest Championship is only played upon a links course because it offers the more challenging game and most certainly when the conditions are unpredictable.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2012, 09:30:46 AM »
Melvyn, here's the nut: unpredictable weather is not the domain of links courses alone. Unpredictable weather happens everywhere. The original quote had nothing to do with links courses, but with weather.

If you want to extract "links courses" from "conditions that usually don't suit golf," you are permitted to do so, but I believe such an appropriation would be an incorrect one.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2012, 10:03:27 AM »

Ronald

My whole post is based upon those immortal words “conditions that usually don't suit golf”. In my experience all condition suits golf, that’s my point. I know what was said at it was related to weather, but again I say links golf is suitable for nearly all weather conditions except deep snow and flooding (well now that the modern ball sinks).

The game in other parts of the world may be played in their various ways but we have not – well as yet succumbed to being cart and electronic driven that a little poor weather put us off a round.

Those of you who play the Northern courses know the clubs and their local members who play golf at every opportunity, laughing in the face of a small windy day with a bit of rain.

My point being that golf is played in all conditions and links courses do tend to sometimes get the worst of the weather including sand and sea spray hitting the players depending upon which links course you play. Its part of the game and IMHO its suitable to play golf in such conditions.

Look at some of the old watercolours and oils on the 18 & 19th Century courses, you general see not fine sunny days but dark overcast windy days, that’s what the game was born out of, so we, well clearly some of us still accept the conditions as just another part of the traps and hazard while encouraging us to think out our game shot for shot. Man it can be so stimulating out there that it keeps golfers coming back to the same course time after time experiencing the different faces of the game thank to cold or warm front working its way over the course. Its golf, its part of the game, that’s my whole point. The conditions can do to a course what perhaps even the best designer can’t, that make it interesting and challenging time after time without repeating the same shots.

Links golf gives you more, certainly if the conditions are closing in, that’s why so many love links courses, because they can give so much more, making them more that suitable in my book.

Melvyn


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2012, 10:09:52 AM »
Looks like somebody has lost his sense of humor. ;) Maybe having an impeccable golfing pedigree" does that to you!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2012, 10:36:47 AM »

DT

No, not lost anything, at least I have a sense of humour, more than can be said about some. Still a Member of Dornock? Yet not defending the course and its suitability to play in many a poor weather condition.  Loyalty just is not what it was.

Melvyn

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2012, 11:04:00 AM »
So we're not really discussing conditions, then, are we? We're discussing an attitude that someone perceives to be applicable to all members of a golfing society.

1. You won't get an honest answer from the cart-riding gentry, as they don't belong to/follow GCA, and I don't pretend to speak for them;

2. I played golf in the snow this year~I'll put that condition against any besides hurricane/earthquake/flood. I did it for the love of the game and for a GCA fellow who was driving in;

3. I really thought we were after a sincere discussion on appropriate weather conditions. Now that I see it's another veiled/not-so-veiled dressing-down of riders versus walkers, I'm done with this thread.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2012, 11:11:46 AM »
I really thought we were after a sincere discussion

Ron...I thought so too.  This thread has gone off the rails.  But I will make one more comment.

In my initial post, I said the comment was not surprising and sad.  I stand by that comment, but at the time I wrote that I had no idea who made the comment.  And frankly, it didn't and doesn't matter to me.

Here is what I was getting at...

The comment suggested to me that someone who enjoy's golf is not familiar with links golf.  This is a shame (sad) because links golf is a critical genre of golf.  The genesis of the game.  I think everyone who enjoys golf needs to see that genre.

Furthermore, I think the "sad" comment goes beyond that.  It is sad for any lover of the game to only know one genre.  I firmly believe links golf needs to be played, parkland golf, heathland golf, golf in the majestic dunes of Ireland...or the Sandhills of NE...I think playing in the Sandbelt of Australia has to be a must for any lover of the game. [I could go on with other examples, but you get my point.]

And that is just it...to limiit yourself to one style and only one style of the game is sad/not ideal in my book.  The game is great and to gather personal insights and insights into the game and how it can be played a "golfer" needs to experience different genres of the game.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2012, 12:22:20 PM »
Very well said Mac!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2012, 01:36:05 PM »

This thread was meant to discover if this site supported the point of view that links golf was played “in conditions that usually don't suit golf.”

It failed due as usual thanks to people trying to score points off me instead of looking at the post in hand.   Due to the innocent ignorance of the original writer – because he was or is unfamiliar with the British game and links golf we had the opportunity to introduce links golf .

This has sweet FA to do with the merits of inland golf, it’s all about just playing upon the links. For this golfer nothing short of heavy snow or flooding would dampen my resolve. In fact links golf actually gets started where many an inland game leaves off thanks to the nature of the conditions. So as I said I do not support the comment “in conditions that usually don't suit golf.”

The comment clearly comes from someone who freely admits his lack of understanding the links game but to my disappointment he made the statement ‘don’t suit golf’ which shows he is missing some of the best golf he will ever play in his life. These were the condition in which I was introduced and played golf, in Fife and at St Andrews. It is second nature to me to the point that I just love that raw feel of the game on a wet and windy day that has taken control of the course. How to best play the routing and in short to reinvent an old well know course that I have played so many times before. Playing a Green close to the high tide mark can add spice to that Hole. Not just the wind or spray is catching you but at times you have to be careful that the Green and or your ball perhaps even the Hole has not been given a good dusting of wet sand as you are about to take your shot. Everything you thought you knew about the course evaporates as the weather takes control, yet after lunch as conditions change (not necessary improve to a calm day) the course starts to reflect back to its own character, though complacency is still not the order of the day.

I advocate that links golf is better for this golfer than any inland course I have played and there have been many.  That’s not to say that they are poor or rubbish, far from that but unless exposed on the hill side many inland courses just can’t reward the golfer in the same raw and challenging manner. Then do not forget the cool freshness of playing a links course thanks to the proximity to the sea.

Alas this thread did not go to the heights I had hoped or for that matter the feelings of those still considered Links Virgins, but then for some it’s more amusing to kill a thread instead help expand it for the good of all. 

To those that tried, many thanks.

Melvyn

Will MacEwen

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2012, 01:42:48 PM »
Anyone else stunned at how this thread turned out?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2012, 01:48:19 PM »

Will

Many thanks for your comment but was it actually necessary, what has it achieved for GCA, this thread or even you?

Melvyn

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2012, 01:51:24 PM »
Melvyn:

Your quote:  "This thread was meant to discover if this site supported the point of view that links golf was played “in conditions that usually don't suit golf.”"

The only person that doesn't know the answer to that question is a person that doesn't read what is written by others on this site.  The question didn't merit a response because the answer has been given every day in the posts and thoughts shared by all of us.  

Like it or not, there are more people that share your viewpoint than not.  I wish you'd see the light and realize you are among like-minded folks, rather than posturing as the lone proponent of the ideas shared by many.  

Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2012, 02:16:17 PM »
Melvyn I'm a director at Royal Cinque Ports and can honestly say there is no greater fan of links golf, heck I've just purchased a B&B a mile from the club to be closer to living the dream.

What I'm saying is those of us who play 99% of our golf on links courses probably overestimate their importance in the grand scheme of things.

I only play TOC when invited to the R&A so you won't like that either  ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 04:59:12 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2012, 03:13:42 PM »
It is sad for any lover of the game to only know one genre.

Don't cry for me.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2012, 06:02:36 PM »
Melvyn,

As an American who loves links golf, I would suggest you not take the quote about British Open courses too seriously. If a person hasn't played links golf or has made just one trip to the UK & Ireland, they may simply not "get it".

St. Andrews, to be fair, is easy not to like for first time visitors. What makes it so great isn't apparent from just playing the course one time. Then, too, I believe many American visitors are a bit humbled by links golf. It is a different game than back home. The shots are different. Yardage and club selection are unfamiliar. It just isn't that easy if you haven't grown playing those conditions.

I remember my first trip to Ballybunion years ago. Man, I was intimidated by the locals. They could do things I just couldn't do.

But, of course I fell in love....with the people, the culture, the golf course and just the whole way the game is played "across the pond".

No worries about those who don't have the same love. If they don't get it, they just don't get it. I wouldn't waste any energy on them.

Tim Weiman
Tim Weiman

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2012, 08:24:48 PM »
I just love that raw feel of the game on a wet and windy day

Melvyn...

I do too.  But this gets to a broader point.  It is GREAT to play links golf on a wet and windy day.  The course design is wide open and allows for recovery from shots the wind blows off line.  Furthermore if that wind is too strong for aerial shots, you can use the firm and fast turf to bounce the ball in...even on a wet day due to the drainage of the soil.

BUT, wet and windy days in Georgia are not so fun to play golf.  The fact that the landscape is different with more trees makes heavy winds much more tricky with less chances for recovery.  Furthermore, the higher the wind and the wetter the soil the less fun it can be due to the nature of the soil and grass types.  The bump and run shot may not be a good option to select to avoid the wind's impact due to the grasses and wet clay based soils.

This is what I was getting at earlier with the different genres of courses.  The weather's impact on the playability of a golf course differs from local to local.  A great architect can design a course that highlights each different locations good golf characteristics, while minimizing their weak ones.  And seeing these differing characteristics are what makes traveling to play golf so interesting to me.  And this kind of gets into the thought process behind what is ideal weather to play golf in.  Depending on where you live, you will probably have a different opinion on that topic.



Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2012, 07:13:45 AM »

Mac

This thread was about The Open played upon Links courses. There was no reference to any form of inland course whatsoever; it was purely links golf being discussed.

I enjoy golf be it on links or inland courses, yet I find that each time I come away from a links course I feel more contented (while perhaps more tired and a little shell shocked too). That is not to say I am not more than satisfied with inland courses. I have in my time played over many courses be they  in GB, West Indies, South America mid Africa and the Indo/Asian Continent, yet there is still more of a  thrill for me playing a links course. I fully understand the different soil/climatic, coming across a red sand course at Jos in Nigeria. This consisted of red sand fairways with a very poor excuse for grass appearing in small low level clumps every couple of feet or so between each blade of grass. The Tees consisted of 2 to 3 Metre high compacted termite mounds with what I can only describe as the old rubber winter Tee mats on top. The Course was 18 Tees with 9 Greens and the criss cross routing was quite a hazard in its own right. To add some modern hazards Nigerian Electrical Company put power lines over the course encouraging the ball to hit cables every round. As for the Greens, red compacted sand, devoid of even the odd blade of grass. Yet after a few rounds you got into the way of things, however this region of north Nigeria suffers from the Harmattan, thick dust storms that come out of nowhere and can stay for 3-4 days, it’s fun getting back to the car let alone the next Green ops sorry Red.

While others feel that some of us overrate Links golf, I find links golf require that degree of commitment and concentration on whatever skill levels the golfer possess when the condition close in. It lifts the spirit while pushing the golfer to the near limits of his abilities, surely that is what golf is all about. I find that inland courses while still great fun cannot get my soul not the mention mind that close to the state of Nirvana – only a links course can do that for me.

This thread was only ever about Links courses. The point being that they change for the better the more the weather gauge changes for the worst. In my youth on a fine day in St Andrews my father would not play a round, letting the Visitors have the course. He and his friends would wait until the weather started to turn before seeking a game, sometimes returning soaked to the skin annoying my mother, yet we could all see he enjoyed his game. Links course actually are in my humble opinion totally suited to conditions that might not suite other courses, hence my disagreement with the comment ‘in conditions that usually don’t suite golf’ said admittedly by Tim who confirms has little knowledge of Links golf.

I had hoped that we could have opened up the subject and encouraged others to seek out not just our well known links courses but our little gems that have a way of making the day so much fun while experiencing the unknown.
Along that strip of land that hides Cullen we have great links courses, Old Moray jumps out to be mentioned. Also although not a links course but the old Earl of Aberdeen’s private course, now known as Tarland Golf Club (http://www.tarlandgolfclub.co.uk/ ) is worth a visit while on your way to Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen. Sorry I digress as I said I had hoped to keep to Links courses on this thread showing that the more adverse the weather the more the links course comes alive.
   
A thread that hoped to prove a better understanding of links courses, but alas it did not evolve into a useful debate, but resulted in comments like “Anyone else stunned at how this thread turned out?” noting that the individual who made that statement did not get involved, just happy to pour scorn.

Thanks for your sensible input.

Melvyn

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »
Melvyn,

I have been called off the New Course by the Committee because it became unplayable, owing to drenching rain, puddled greens and wind that could almost be called  a hurricane. Like you, much of my early golf was played in Africa; I dare anyone to play and stay on the course with inches of rain pelting down each hour. I no longer find it fun getting soaked and miserable no matter what the bravehearts say, I would rather have a drink in the Club.

Bob

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2012, 09:30:20 AM »
MHM...such a troll.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2012, 12:00:44 PM »

MHM...such a troll.

Now is this a badge of honour relating to GCA as a troll was mentioned or the combined knowledge and experience of my American cousins trying to discuss the topic of Golf Course Architecture?

I fear the latter as we know its rather difficult to get their old grey cells working hence the need for aids within their game from assisted walking, distance calculations and latest technology to overcome questionable skill – well it’s got to be questionable if you need any form of assistance in playing the golf. Pity there is not a Viagra tablet that can at an instant give hard firm skill to a player, but then that might be expecting just too much from the scientists.

‘There but for the Grace of God go I’

Melvyn

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the Members of GCA.com support this view point……
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2012, 02:14:58 PM »
Melvyn...I'm not your cousin.

If your opinion of Americans is we are stupid and slow, then you are more pathetic than I thought.

You sir are sick...you post simply for attention and to feed your arrogant opinion of yourself.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

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