[MTWilkinson]

I've always been amused by some of the comments directed towards Messrs. Fazio, Jones, and Nicklaus on this site.  So, in the Holiday spirit, I think it would be a hoot to rank them in order of architectural talent (obviously, you have to include their design staffs as part of the analysis since field work may not be their forte).

To get it going, my list (from best to worst) is:

1.  Nicklaus (Muirfield Village, Shoal Creek period very good, 80's mounding generally horrible, newer stuff e.g., Colleton River, Mayacama, getting back to solid design; generally excellent tee to green shot values with less interest around the green complexes)

2.  Fazio (Shadow Creek is awesome, World Woods best 36 hole public facility in golf, but...alot of the rest all starts to look the same - alot of aesthetics, little shot values)

3.  Rees (redesign work generally well done, particularly at The Country Club; but his original work seems to be a pleasant, if uninspired succession of mounds and small, shallow, round bunkers).

I'd be interested in the GCA consensus (i.e., which of the non-minimalists is the best).

[Aaron]

Well,
I have a little variation from yours...

(1) Fazio...Like you said, Shadow and Barrens are quality designs, as is Victoria National. But Mr. Fazio could benefit from a little more emphasis on strategy rather then asthetics and playability.

(2) Nicklaus...I have only played Long Bay Club and although a couple holes were intersting, everything else is a blur of cartath, containment mounds and rail-road ties.

(3) Jones...as mentioned, his revamping work is nice stuff (as far as I can tell) but his original designs are rather offensive the eye. Well, just thoe flat round things...what are they called?

All the above are not bad designers, but I think a majority of their work lacks and style or defenition. I think, Like BRadely Klein wrote, we mistake the style for really, a cookie-cutter approach to design. It's no that their holes look bad, it's just that I cannot tell the difference from hole 1 and hole 2-17 other then length and par value.

Aaron

[Tim_Weiman]

Aaron,

From time to time we get bogged down in useless arguments about people's qualifications to comment on a particular course or architect.

This gets old real fast.

Nonetheless, I'm wondering about your comments regarding Jack Nicklaus courses ("I cannot tell the difference from hole 1 and hole 2-17 other than length and par value") in light of your admission that you've only played one of his courses.

Wouldn't it have been better to simply acknowledge you weren't really familiar with Jack's work?

[Will E]

1. Wendy's
2. Mc Donalds
3. Burger King
thank goodness that they haven't tried to restore some of my favorite places to eat
T1. Fazio, that could change if I learn more about his redesign work. Pine Barrens is a nice change of pace for him. I also am quite familar with what once was Pelican's Nest and it too was unlike many of his current courses that seemed to be cloned out. Victoria is on my to play list, ( I'll supply the balls Dave).
T1. Jack, even though he did design the Bear I've forgiven him based upon his most recent courses. I am hopeful that he will continue creating courses like his last few on the 5 miles of ocean front property he is working on in the Dominican.
3. Rees, he's been bashed enough here, I don't have anything to add.

[Gib_Papazian]

Why don't we just get it over with and phrase the question:

Who would you rather see naked?

A. Janet Reno
B. Rosanne Barr
C. Phyllis Diller

Enough of this! It is getting us nowhere!

All three of those guys have produced both A+ work and complete puke. (Although I haven't seen enough Fazio to state I've seen anything toooooooo objectionable)

We must move past this cul de sac!

[Aaron]

I was sort of assuming that people would know this because I stated I have only played Long Bay Club.

I'll restate what I said then: From Long Bay and the pics I have seen of his other courses, it looks as though Jack's (And Fazio's, and Rees') designs are very similair. I used to believe that this was simply someones style but after reading BRadely S. Klein's essay entitled "When Golf Course Design BEcomes Big Business" I am not sure that is true.

I would assume that all could benefit from more on-site work and less computer design...but feel free to say I am totally wrong.

Aaron

[BillV]

1-Redhead
2-Blonde (Close second)
3-Brunette

or

1-Bourgogne Rouge (Grand Bourgogne ca scent la merde!)
2-CA-Meritage
3-Bordeaux Rouge

(This is infinitely more fun)

[BillV]

Shit en Francais passes the test!

You Canucks need to give me the codes for accent grave, circumflex,etc

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

I was eating my breakfast.

I was reading your post.

I lost my appetite and my breakfast.

But, I'm still laughing.

[Rich_Goodale]

Gib

Even I, the stoic one, was laughing too!

BillV

You reminded me of the French guidebook's description of General McAuliffe's response to the German demands for his surrender at Bastogne:

"Les Noix!"

[Scott_Burroughs_]

MT,
    So you're saying World Woods is a better 36-hole public facility than Bandon Dunes/Pacific Dunes?  I think you might get an argument from, well, every one here on that one.  WW gets the nod on their practice facility.

[David Wigler]

I know I am in the minority here but I am a fan of both Fazio and Jack and generally like their work.  I would rate them

1.  Nicklaus (Fan of Southshore, Whispering Pines, Reflections Bay, Great Waters, Muirfield Village, and many others)

2.  Fazio (Fan of Shadow Creek, World Woods, Victoria National and many others)

No third.  I have not seen a single Rees that earns him being considered with these two.

[MTWilkinson]

Scott Burroughs:

You're right.  Pac Dunes/Bandon Dunes is far superior to WW.  I consider them resort courses (because of the lodging component) rather than just public courses you drive to for the day (as at WW, albeit with a long drive from Orlando or Tampa).  Qualifications aside, the quality of the architecture is definitely in favor of PD/BD, even though WW is very good (and yes, has the best practice facility I've ever seen).

[Scott_Burroughs]

MT,
    I had a hunch that's what you were thinking.  Most resorts luckily don't require lodging to play the courses, hence truly being "public".  Even the top 2 resort courses, Pebble and Pinehurst #2, don't require lodging, though with the exorbitant prices to play, aren't public-friendly.

    A few examples of resorts where you must stay to play include Shadow Creek, The Homestead (Cascades), Hualalai, and Sunriver (to play Crosswater).   Others consider themselves private, but can get access by staying at lodges include Cuscowilla and Linville.

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott/MT:

I've long held the view that World Woods has THE best practice facility I've ever seen.  But, the practice facility at Bandon is ONE of the very best.  Apparently, the resort is also considering an expansion and creating some warm up holes like those that exist at WW.

[Jeff Fortson]

1. Nicklaus

2. Fazio

3. Stevie Wonder

......

99,999,999. Rees Jones

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