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Scott DeBolt

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Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« on: March 21, 2012, 08:30:54 PM »
Just got back from a power golf trip to the desert....played Apache Stronghold for 3 days....  About what I expected after seeing the photos....however, still had a great time. I spoke at length with the GM and he said that the Tribe is finally behind the golf course. They have some serious issues with water quality, quality labor, and lack of a real supt on hand. However, I submitted about a 5,000 word assessment of the property to the GM in hopes of getting the tribe headed in the right direction. Greens were horrible....they basically baked last summer without anyone checking on them throughout the day and in the fall they did not get them repaired so they will struggle this year as well. They are going to aerify on April 2nd and I have advised them to double and even tripel verticut (deep) as well as aerification and then overseed with 3 lbs./1000 of an aggressive bentgrass (T-1).....  This should help matters 100%  I think they could put in Champion or Mini-verde but would be scared with the quality of the crew they have there. Fairways were pretty thin in areas and they scalped them down too low heading into winter and the dormant bermuda was matted down. I suggested they not cut them down as low going into winter next year and potentially overseeding them with ryegrass. Bunkers need to all be rebuilt....they are terrible...but the bones are there and this is still such a great design. I have offered my services for free in hopes of turning around this spectacular layout....  We will see what they decide to do. I will post any updates I get from them. We still had a blast, the weather was perfect 78 sunny, no humidity...perfect.  They will have to spend some money but if they can get it in good shape....I still think this course can be a big success. The Tribe needs to package together gambling and golf and advertise.....but better get the course in much better shape before they spend any ad money.....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »
Scott:

Thanks for the update, even if it is about as I expected.  Jim Urbina has offered innumerable times [on my behalf and on his own] to help them out if they'd just pay our expenses, and you're welcome to reiterate that offer to your new contact there.  But I can't see how you can call them "behind the golf course" when they have "serious issues with quality labor, and a lack of a real superintendent on hand."  Those are the real kinds of commitments they need to make; bringing back the architect doesn't matter a bit if they're not committed to following through.

It is still amazing to me how many people enjoy the course in spite of all the difficulties ... Brad Klein had to actually ban it from the GOLFWEEK rankings or it would probably still be ranked highly among the best public courses in Arizona.  If there's another course that gets the same treatment, I don't know what it is.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 08:40:47 PM by Tom_Doak »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 08:45:30 PM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

Scott DeBolt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 08:58:37 PM »
Tom,
I got the feeling that the new GM understands that they need a quality supt and I offered to help train employees....offered to find him a supt as well (I do this all over the world). The Tribe needs to make the committment to to spend the needed money to upgrade the water quality, upgrade the knowledge of the workers (which I think a good supt will definitely do)and spend the needed upkeep dollars to keep it going. I think they need to bring you and Jim back in and re-do the bunkers. They need to address their grassing issues...(I remember when the fairways were perfect with the low mow bluegrasses) but now they are rutted due to not having enough turf when they get the monsoon rains and you have washouts everywhere... however, they are really not that far away from turning it around if they would be willing to head in the right direction.  I just think they are missing the boat in not tying the casino and golf together...they pretty much operate as seperate entities....  they don't even serve food in the golf clubhouse now...you have to wait for someone to run over to the casino and get the food....ugh.  However, if the new guy can do what he says he can do...I think they can really turn this gem around.....  still one of my favorite golf courses! Hopefully they give you a call and bring you back in.....would love to help out!!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 10:01:26 PM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

Longshadow used to be one.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 10:12:14 PM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

Longshadow used to be one.

Agreed.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 10:13:12 PM »
Another serious question, what other really good courses have been banned from the Golf Week rankings?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 11:06:44 PM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

Maybe Ko'olau in Hawaii which ran into severe financial problems, lack of play and really bad conditioning.  It was also really hard which scared off many players, at least for return play.

The owners sold the course and it was finally softened up.  I think they are doing OK (not great) now.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 11:19:05 PM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

A couple good ones north of Houston - Waterwood National and Blaketree.

Jim Nugent

Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 04:24:55 AM »
How much money will it take to whip the course into good shape?  Also, if the tribe does that, can they make enough money from golf to make it pay? 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 11:17:35 AM »
What other REALLY GOOD courses have been as rudely treated by the owners?

Serious question.

Longshadow used to be one.

Boy is that the truth, plus the guy was an asshole.

I really look forward to playing it again next time up that way.  I'm sure that Mike Young has it well on the way back.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 03:10:23 PM »
Boy is that the truth, plus the guy was an asshole.


Coming from this source - the guy must really have been an asshole.

Jim Johnson

Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 03:54:07 PM »
Hey Scott, thanks for the report.
Would love to hear more about your golf there. Don't hold anything back.

Interested in your recommendation of T1 bentgrass on the greens. Why this particular bentgrass?

JJ

Mark Provenzano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 04:17:22 PM »
They are going to aerify on April 2nd and I have advised them to double and even tripel verticut (deep) as well as aerification and then overseed with 3 lbs./1000 of an aggressive bentgrass (T-1)..... 

Grrrr...was going to head over April 4th. Maybe next time I'm in AZ.

For those of you in the business, I've seen a few mentions of water quality--can that be fixed easily/cheaply? Or is that a difficult/expensive issue to address in that remote desert area?

Scott DeBolt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 05:32:06 PM »
Jim Nugent, I think they could "Whip the course in good shape" for a minimal investment....  from a grassing standpoint, I think they can do it fairly cheap....the water quality issue will needs some work...however, with the possible use of paspalum (Seaspray) that might eliminate some of that cost.. their biggest cost will be re-doing the bunkers.....pretty much all of them need to be re-shaped, etc...  I am guessing they could turn it around for 75K as long as they hired a supt that could train (or re-train) the current crew and check out the irrigation system.

Jim Johnson,

The golf course is solid...the conditions are not. Some tees were bare sand (but easliy fixable) the fairways were cut real short going into winter so there is nothing to hit off of, and nothing to slow the roll down on the ball so we hit it through doglegs quite often. The Bones of the course are solid...the greens were not good....probably 6 greens that had very little grass on them and they were so bumpy you could not get a good read on speed or break (but we played them anyway)...they had 3-5 greens that had a decent stand of grass on them....from a grassing standpoint I think they can turn it around fairly quickly.... T-1 is an aggressive bentgrass (Jacklin Seed Company) and quick germination (3 days) with very good lateral growth habit for filling in thin areas as well as repairing ballmarks, divots, etc.. there is no disease pressure there and T-1 is very good with heat at greens, tees, and fairway heights... I am waiting for the water quality tests and some soil tests....sent them a resume of a supt who would be perfect for restoring this gem. I love this golf course and will probably go back next year...but am hoping my assistance will help get them over the hump and moving forward...  once this golf course in in good shape they can really market it again and get back on the ranking list where it should be...
I am sure Tom can expand on this even further....  be glad to answer any additional questions....

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 07:32:36 PM »
Scott:


It is still amazing to me how many people enjoy the course in spite of all the difficulties ... Brad Klein had to actually ban it from the GOLFWEEK rankings or it would probably still be ranked highly among the best public courses in Arizona.  If there's another course that gets the same treatment, I don't know what it is.

Sugarloaf Mountain in Florida is quite similar, but likely a bit better conditioned.   Played it recently for $22 with cart!  Fairways and tees were awful, but greens were puttable.  I would guess its days are numbered.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 01:51:30 PM »
Scott:

Thanks for the update, even if it is about as I expected...

It is still amazing to me how many people enjoy the course in spite of all the difficulties ...

Tom, wondering if you have a moment to describe a bit on how the project originally came about?  Curious how/why they chose Tom Doak, long before you became a "household" name.


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 03:53:21 PM »
If they put on a good golf and poker tournament I'd be on the next flight...  Where's Bill Veeck when you really need him?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 03:55:40 PM »
If they put on a good golf and poker tournament I'd be on the next flight...  Where's Bill Veeck when you really need him?

We can add a nice poker tournament to the Tequila Cup... you in?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 04:04:54 PM »
Now you're talking!  Tough to justify not bringing the whole clan to Cabo though which changes the economics somewhat.  Of course it depends on the tournament stakes... ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Johnson

Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 04:54:50 PM »
Curious if anyone has been out to play Apache Stronghold lately, and what the course conditions are like.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 06:59:58 PM »
Figure this is as good a place as any to provide an update on the conditions.

I was out there yesterday and the course is in quite playable condition. As has been reported, the bunkers are the worst of it. There is no sand in any of them and a good number (especially the shallower ones in the fairways) are starting to be taken by grass in areas. The tees are the other area of the course in major need of help. Grass is sparse on the tees at best and erosion has started as well so any kind of flat or vaguely even lie is hard to find.

The best of it is the greens. They certainly have some areas with major damage, but for the most part they have grass and are growing in well. In fact, I thought they putted quite well, if a touch on the slow side. The fairways were somewhere in between. For the most part, they are playable, if scruffy. There are some areas where weeds dominate more than grass and due to excessive watering the areas around the greens are actually overly wet, even muddy. It's all for the greater good, ultimately, I'm sure, but for now the course around the greens doesn't play much as intended. Even the sports that doesn't have issues due to wetness have some issues with the way the growth is growing. There's no way to properly bounce/run a shot into the punchbowl 10th for example.

It's a tough situation they're in. I spent more in gas yesterday than I did on my green fee and there were not many people around. Hard to make the money that would be necessary to really turn things around in those circumstances.

That said, it's certainly playable and I would argue to issues with the bunkers are probably less of an issue than it would be at many (non-desert?) courses.

Tom Yost

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Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 07:33:29 PM »
Thanks for the update Matthew.  I was thinking of heading up there as the warmer weather greens up the Bermuda.  I think they were charging $15 to walk it last I heard!

It has been a year since Scott's report.  Any news if they did actually hire a superintendent?




Jim Johnson

Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 12:01:54 AM »
Thanks Matthew. Good to hear "something" about the course, however positive or negative.

My wife and I will be flying into Phoenix in mid-May and then driving into n.w. New Mexico and northern Arizona for a week and a half of golf. The plan is to overnight at "the resort" and get in an afternoon game after arrival and then a morning game before driving on to New Mexico. I hope to do a thorough photo tour of the course and will try to get some comments from Tom Doak on the creation of the course.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on my trip to Apache Stronghold
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »
Thanks Matthew. Good to hear "something" about the course, however positive or negative.

My wife and I will be flying into Phoenix in mid-May and then driving into n.w. New Mexico and northern Arizona for a week and a half of golf. The plan is to overnight at "the resort" and get in an afternoon game after arrival and then a morning game before driving on to New Mexico. I hope to do a thorough photo tour of the course and will try to get some comments from Tom Doak on the creation of the course.

I think you'll find the course very playable by then. Their warm season starts a bit later than it does here in Phoenix on account of the altitude, but they already seemed to have good growth coming in for the fairways. I'd expect good greens and pretty good fairways by then. The bunkers and tees aren't likely to get turned around any time soon.

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