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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2012, 08:30:56 PM »


  pat I could have played the first 3 holes with. a Blindfold

Apparently, you DID  ;D


Anthony Gray

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2012, 08:32:16 PM »


  pat I could have played the first 3 holes with. a Blindfold

Apparently, you DID  ;D


  Toche




Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2012, 08:47:13 PM »

The tombstone aiming markers have to win that battle.

When the strength or focal point of your argument centers on the aiming markers, I think I've won the argument.



The layup is much better at Prestwick because it is a layup.

Layup, WHAT LAYUP ?
It's 391 from the back tees.
Do you lay up on # 5, (Himalayas) as well ?



The fairway at The National curves around the hill.

Not really.
It's a straight hole.
There's an alternate route that flanks the hill for those not wishing to challenge the "alps"


A dune beats a hill hands down.

Isn't the hill at NGLA a large dune ?


Why don't you like the original?

Would you cite for me, with great specificity, where I ever stated that I didn't like the original.

Thanks


Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2012, 08:57:01 PM »
Pat

I agree with Anthony, the Alps at NGLA is way overrated.  I have played both the original and this and both have their novelty, but nether are standout holes.  Pat, as you would say they are sporty, but the one at NGLA is just not that good in my opinion.  If you miss just a little left you can't get your iron shot high enough and the perils of missing it right are enormous.  Then there is the hit and hope second shot which is unlike the #16th Punchbowl where most shots funnel onto the green.  It is what it is....a sacred cow.

Chip

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2012, 09:14:19 PM »
Brian-The last two before the clubhouse shots which I think are of 18 green are really good. You are right as Eric looks like a kid that just stole a candy bar from the corner store.

Tim,

Looking forward to visiting your candy store in August!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 09:15:16 PM »
Pat

I agree with Anthony, the Alps at NGLA is way overrated.  I have played both the original and this and both have their novelty, but nether are standout holes.  Pat, as you would say they are sporty, but the one at NGLA is just not that good in my opinion.  If you miss just a little left you can't get your iron shot high enough and the perils of missing it right are enormous.  Then there is the hit and hope second shot which is unlike the #16th Punchbowl where most shots funnel onto the green.  It is what it is....a sacred cow.

Chip

Chip,
Overrated is a relative term, but I really don't agree with your critique.
There are many options off the tee. Agreed missing it right is bad, but there's a LOT of room left of that to drive it.
If you're having trouble clearing the hill, I'd suggest lofted hybrids or a 9 wood ;D.
It's not a "hit and hope" approach.
The ball almost always ends up exactly where you think it would if you know the course.
I guess it suffers from being uphill and that isn't a comfortable shot for many. I happen to love uphill holes as they are becoming rarer and rarer.
I think it's a refreshing and exciting hole, and one where local knowledge is prized rather than just being another hole that's "all out in front of you"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Anthony Gray

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 09:20:46 PM »


  Pat. Is the copy better than the original?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 09:24:47 PM »
Pat

I agree with Anthony, the Alps at NGLA is way overrated.  

Chip,

Let's break the hole down into its component pieces.

Let's start with the drive.

Is the drive at # 3 at NGLA not vastly superior to the drive the golfer faces at # 17 at Prestwick ?

The putting surface:
Is the putting surface at NGLA not vastly superior to the putting surface at Prestwick ?

The putting surface surrounds:

?

The second shot:

How would you compare variety ?
Difficulty ?


I have played both the original and this and both have their novelty, but nether are standout holes.  

We disagree.
I think both are standout holes.

If you play # 3 at NGLA in a medal play and match play competition, I think you might change your mind.
In match play at Prestwick, many matches are over by the time you get to the 17th tee.
Not the case at # 3 at NGLA.


Pat, as you would say they are sporty, but the one at NGLA is just not that good in my opinion.  

Agreed on "sporty".
But, # 3 tends to sit on the cusp of "sporty" and "championship"


If you miss just a little left you can't get your iron shot high enough and the perils of missing it right are enormous.

I'm not so sure.
The entire fairway rises up to the hill, giving the golfer an "upslope" lie, which assists in getting the ball airborne, quickly.
But, remember, the fairway is about 100 yards wide.
Why should a golfer, 40 yards off line, be afforded an ideal to benign approach ?


Then there is the hit and hope second shot which is unlike the #16th Punchbowl where most shots funnel onto the green.  
Chip, I was hoping your powers of observation were superior to Anthony's.
There's a high directional marker behind the green that gets moved to indicate the location of the flag on that LARGE green.

Why shouldn't architects be able to forge a situation that makes the golfer uncertain and uncomfortable ?
Today, you know the exact yardage to the green from anywhere on the golf course.
What's left for the emotions, intellect and stomach to ponder ?
The 5th and 17th at Prestwick, the 2nd, 3rd and 16th at NGLA.
The 4th at PV.
The 6th at Old Marsh.

Surely, the architect should be armed with the ability to present a reasonable blind shot.
Why shouldn't "hit and hope" remain a viable element in golf ?




It is what it is....a sacred cow.

It's far more.
It's a great golf hole, one that combines many elements, many decisions and much uncertainty.

I suspect that you and Anthony suffered unkind fates at the hands of # 3  ;D



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2012, 09:27:34 PM »


Pat. Is the copy better than the original?

It's not a copy, rather a version of a similar theme.

As to the heart of the question, yes, I believe that # 3 is a better hole with far more in the way of options and variety


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 09:31:43 PM »
First time I played at NGLA I had legendary Timmonds.
I birdie one and two and drive it down the middle on 3-have no idea where to go.
I'm looking down the fairway and see what I think is the green (about where Sebonack's dorm is now ::))
I ask Timmons about my line but he'd three paragraphs deep in a the same story he told me about Ted Kroll on #1.
Needless to say I walk to #4 tee even par.............
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 10:10:53 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2012, 10:08:42 PM »
Jeff,

Joe McBride is playing a match.

Standing at his drive, he asks Timmonds what club to hit.
Timmonds says, "Hit the 5 Mr Mac"
Joe says, "That looks like alot of club"
Timmonds says, "hit the 5 Mr Mac."
So, Joe hits the 5, airmails the green and looks over at Timmonds, who says:
"Just a game Mr Mac, just a game"

Another time, in a match, on the first green, a golfer asks Timmonds.
"Timmonds, where is this putt going to go ?"
Timmonds says, "It's going to go where ever you hit it."

A variation has a golfer, standing on the green, asking Timmonds where he should hit his putt.
Timmonds says, "Hit it in the hole"

When I arranged for Tiger Woods to play with Terry McBride at NGLA, we had Timmonds would caddy for him.
On the 1st hole, as Tiger is bending down to read the putt, Timmonds shoves him out of the way, looks at the putt and says, hit it to the right.

Timmonds would talk non-stop and was worth two or three holes in a match play competition as he was sure to drive the opponent, dizzy.

At dinner at Joe McBride's house that night, I asked Tiger, how he liked his caddy.
Tiger says, he usually doesn't like a caddy to volunteer information, and to speak only when asked for information.
And, that he doesn't like a caddy to read putts for him.
Timmonds was the antithesis of those qualities.

He was such a nice man, a unique caddy to say the least.

Once, when sitting in a cart, and he did become a cart caddy later in life, a golfer hit his recovery out of the greenside bunker and asked Timmonds to rake the bunker, to which Timmonds responded, "Timmonds doesn't rake bunkers anymore".

He used to sit in the cart and read the putts from 30 yards, not precisely mind you, but his years of familiarity with those greens allowed him to be in the general vicinity of the correct read.

There's a nice picture of Timmonds and Tiger in the Founders Locker Room at NGLA.

It was a great day, for all, and especially for Timmonds.

Anthony Gray

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2012, 10:24:45 PM »

Iit just doesn't fit my eye as well as the original Pat.


Sebonac

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2012, 04:21:45 PM »
As for Alps...There are definitely options from the tee.  I usually try to hit it up the gap on the right for a better angle and shorter second shot.  But I am definitely taking a risk.  Smaller landing area.  Push right...and I am in heavy stuff and might have some tree limbs to contend with.  Pull it left...and I might be on the hill or in a trap.  Or I could take less club....play it safe...and have the longer, blind second.  Great strategy.  And if you play it a few times....you know when you hit a good second right when it comes off of the club...it is very satisfying.

Sebonac

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2012, 04:26:14 PM »
Another Timmons story....approach shot to 17....

"Timmons....how far is it?"

Timmons response "8 iron."

"OK"  8 iron flies over the green.

Timmons analysis... "You hit it too good!"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2012, 06:04:17 PM »
The Alps at National Golf Links of America is one of the greatest holes in the world, imho.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2012, 09:59:05 PM »

Iit just doesn't fit my eye as well as the original Pat.

Anthony,

I can't argue with that.

"fitting one's eye" is a critical factor in how you view a golf hole/feature.
It's YOUR eye, your fit.

# 3 at NGLA may be an acquired taste for some.
For others, it's love at first sight.





Dave Falkner

Re: Pictures from my day at NGLA
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2012, 12:45:30 PM »
Pat
I would guess that Timmonds is the caddie who told the wall street guy when asked what club he should hit on 17 "You might as well hit it with your dick"

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