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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 10:18:13 PM »
Sven,

Correct.  My statement was about the man with the transitions lenses and the cargo shorts.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jim Colton

Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 10:26:18 PM »
JC, I'm going to read your posts,  and think about them, not dismiss them. You might be right. I'm not sure why Rupert focused on Dismal River, though I guess it's hard to fault a guy for worrying about the national destination club that's opening in the same general area at the same time. Who's to say that the previous owners at DR weren't doing the same? Although the courses are dramatically different, there has to be some overlap in the target market, especially with the original DR owners all hailing from Denver. The fact they'd let a disingenuous loser like me in has to tell you that they were desperate for warm bodies.

I do wonder, looking back, what would've happened if the founding members hadn't supported the club as much as they did. All of this might've happened 3 yrs ago, somebody would've overpaid for the club then and maybe we're on that infamous "third owner" right now. Might the key difference between DR and BN be that they just flushed the debt quicker? I don't know, just thinking out loud.

Michael raised an interesting question about the walking only thing. I sincerely hope that isn't the case. A debt-free Ballyneal really only needs 120-130 members to absolutely hum. I believe the market for a club like that with reasonable initiation and dues and an active, engaged membership behind it is big enough to get there. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a significant portion of my meager net worth that that is the case.

I think the Sand Hills comment came from Rob Rigg, who played BN, SH and PC all on the same trip. I can't speak for him. Nor do I share that opinion. Sand Hills is definitely one of the best golf courses in the world.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:35:25 PM by Jim Colton »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 10:38:37 PM »

  They made the right move to let Dave Hensley do what was right for the health of the grass, but they did a bad job of explaining it to early visitors, to the point that many early visitors assume fescue greens are just automatically slow.


Are you forgetting the irrigation system was not switched over from surround grow-in, to fairway mode, until the second year? And that first summer was 6 weeks straight of 105 degree heat with convection oven winds? In May of 06 the turf looked like it had stood for a decade. (Not my words but accurate) In May of 07' the mode mistake had taken its toll which took at least 2 years of heavy work by Dave and crew to get it to where it was back. Never quite the same, as I suspect a few of the strains had been lost, but, it took longer to get it to play properly.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:40:46 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »
Wow, that sounds familiar.  Been there, done that.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 10:46:02 PM »

  They made the right move to let Dave Hensley do what was right for the health of the grass, but they did a bad job of explaining it to early visitors, to the point that many early visitors assume fescue greens are just automatically slow.


Are you forgetting the irrigation system was not switched over from surround grow-in, to fairway mode, until the second year? And that first summer was 6 weeks straight of 105 degree heat with convection oven winds? In May of 06 the turf looked like it had stood for a decade. (Not my words but accurate) In May of 07' the mode mistake had taken its toll which took at least 2 years of heavy work by Dave and crew to get it to where it was back. Never quite the same, as I suspect a few of the strains had been lost, but, it took longer to get it to play properly.


Adam:

Forgetting?  No, I really don't have any idea about some of that history as I was only able to get out to Ballyneal twice [one of them in the off-season] in the first two years it was open.  We had a lot going on right about then, between Rock Creek and The Renaissance Club.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 10:49:03 PM »

I do wonder, looking back, what would've happened if the founding members hadn't supported the club as much as they did. All of this might've happened 3 yrs ago, somebody would've overpaid for the club then and maybe we're on that infamous "third owner" right now. Might the key difference between DR and BN be that they just flushed the debt quicker? I don't know, just thinking out loud.


I agree that the third owner of any golf course usually has the best chance of success.  Which is why I don't understand the need to compare the situation at Ballyneal with Dismal River, whether explicitly or implicity through what happened yesterday on Max's or your thread started here.  The clubs are different and are in different places right now. I don't see anything to be gained for Ballyneal by questioning why DR is what it is today and what the perception is and how it got there.  You have stated that you have no interest nor desire to see DR so why do you care?  

Chechessee is going through a transition right now but focusing on itself and how it can become a successful/viable club.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 10:58:32 PM »
I think the Sand Hills comment came from Rob Rigg, who played BN, SH and PC all on the same trip. I can't speak for him. Nor do I share that opinion. Sand Hills is definitely one of the best golf courses in the world.

To be accurate, the exact quote came from Mihm, not Rigg, and I posted that here. And none of us are Ballyneal members.

"Sparty, NO!" has never been more appropriate than this thread...

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 11:02:06 PM »
IMO(need to put that in front of every post so people remember they are in fact, mostly not stating facts)
The big miss by everyone in this measure of why one business makes it and another doesn't is the people involved.

The biggest myth in the golf world is that it was always easier "back then". Does anyone really think it was easy for Dick Y. to develop and make Sand Hills what it is today? If you think that was easy you're just not very smart. Everyone blaming the economy is like a super blaming the weather. Architects blaming the economy is usually code for you spent too much money. Members whining about the economy usually means your club didn't know how to operate within its means.
Sand Hills has had Dick at the helm for many years. Its great that the course is very good and highly regarded, that's a big plus, but have you ever been to Ben's porch? I'm not seeing a lot of excess there. Dick is the glue, and the guts, that makes Sand Hills work.

Dismal River is experiencing a resurgence (In a very tough economy I might add, and even building a new course) because of Chris Johnston. Like him or not, roll your eyes or not, he is getting it done.

Ballyneal is a great, great course, but its oh so easy to blame the economy for its current problems .Rankings are nice, and very good to have when your running a business, but you better have a leader. You can do an architectural review of Ballyneal until the cows come home and that aint gonna change the fact that it needs leadership.

To the Ballyneal members, I hope you get your club back and focus on making it something special without worrying about what everyone else is up to.



« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:10:00 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 11:05:34 PM »
I think the Sand Hills comment came from Rob Rigg, who played BN, SH and PC all on the same trip. I can't speak for him. Nor do I share that opinion. Sand Hills is definitely one of the best golf courses in the world.

To be accurate, the exact quote came from Mihm, not Rigg, and I posted that here. And none of us are Ballyneal members.

"Sparty, NO!" has never been more appropriate than this thread...

1.  I already said I wasn't talking about members.  In fact, I know for certain Rupert made disparaging remarks about Dismal River to non-members who were visiting Ballyneal and also going to visit Dismal River. 
2.  Glad to see you back from the woodwork.  You might want to re-check your Sparty saying for accuracy.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 11:15:11 PM »
I agree that the third owner of any golf course usually has the best chance of success.  Which is why I don't understand the need to compare the situation at Ballyneal with Dismal River, whether explicitly or implicity through what happened yesterday on Max's or your thread started here.  The clubs are different and are in different places right now. I don't see anything to be gained for Ballyneal by questioning why DR is what it is today and what the perception is and how it got there.  

If I were involved in Ballyneal in any capacity - as a member, a member in limbo, staff, or the owner - I think I'd want to learn as much about the history, lessons learned, and path to success of Dismal River if I read the following comment from the CEO of the club:

Here is a question on the topic of case studies...wonder what would happen of Dismal River and Ballyneal were the same club with common members of both?

It is one thing to deal with rumor and speculation from parties not involved but this is a pretty big hypothetical question given the source. You don't think the employees and leadership of corporations perk up their ears when the leadership team of another company asks or answers a question regarding mergers or acquisitions?

As someone that has been trying to sit this out on the sideline (and I will promptly go back and sit on the bench) this struck me as the boldest thought I have read in any of these threads.

Jim Colton

Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2012, 11:16:28 PM »
JC, I care because I care. Sorry if you don't get that. As I said before, I like to better understand how these projects came about, how they got from A to B. Some folks can just play a course and see it for what it is. Maybe I'm screwed in the head, but I want to know how the got there. I followed Dismal River well before I was a member of BN and glad to see they got it dialed in and headed the right direction. You can think it's phony. I'm certainly comfortable enough in my own skin not to worry about what you think of me.

It didn't make sense for me to go there in 2011, but I'm not exactly constrained to the same opportunity costs this year. I'm like you...looking for access to anywhere that will take me! And who knows...if CJ had his way, we'd be one big happy family.

One thing I learned about the DR thread that it wasn't one main thing, it was a lot of little things. And great leadership. Those are the growing pains of a lot of great clubs early on, and I think it's great to document and dissect. I'm sorry if you don't see the value that I and others got out of it.


Jim Colton

Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2012, 11:24:46 PM »
IMO(need to put that in front of every post so people remember they are in fact, mostly not stating facts)
The big miss by everyone in this measure of why one business makes it and another doesn't is the people involved.

The biggest myth in the golf world is that it was always easier "back then". Does anyone really think it was easy for Dick Y. to develop and make Sand Hills what it is today? If you think that was easy you're just not very smart. Everyone blaming the economy is like a super blaming the weather. Architects blaming the economy is usually code for you spent too much money. Members whining about the economy usually means your club didn't know how to operate within its means.
Sand Hills has had Dick at the helm for many years. Its great that the course is very good and highly regarded, that's a big plus, but have you ever been to Ben's porch? I'm not seeing a lot of excess there. Dick is the glue, and the guts, that makes Sand Hills work.

Dismal River is experiencing a resurgence (In a very tough economy I might add, and even building a new course) because of Chris Johnston. Like him or not, roll your eyes or not, he is getting it done.

Ballyneal is a great, great course, but its oh so easy to blame the economy for its current problems .Rankings are nice, and very good to have when your running a business, but you better have a leader. You can do an architectural review of Ballyneal until the cows come home and that aint gonna change the fact that it needs leadership.

To the Ballyneal members, I hope you get your club back and focus on making it something special without worrying about what everyone else is up to.



Amen, Don. That's great stuff!

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2012, 11:27:15 PM »
I agree that the third owner of any golf course usually has the best chance of success.  Which is why I don't understand the need to compare the situation at Ballyneal with Dismal River, whether explicitly or implicity through what happened yesterday on Max's or your thread started here.  The clubs are different and are in different places right now. I don't see anything to be gained for Ballyneal by questioning why DR is what it is today and what the perception is and how it got there.  

If I were involved in Ballyneal in any capacity - as a member, a member in limbo, staff, or the owner - I think I'd want to learn as much about the history, lessons learned, and path to success of Dismal River if I read the following comment from the CEO of the club:

Here is a question on the topic of case studies...wonder what would happen of Dismal River and Ballyneal were the same club with common members of both?

It is one thing to deal with rumor and speculation from parties not involved but this is a pretty big hypothetical question given the source. You don't think the employees and leadership of corporations perk up their ears when the leadership team of another company asks or answers a question regarding mergers or acquisitions?

As someone that has been trying to sit this out on the sideline (and I will promptly go back and sit on the bench) this struck me as the boldest thought I have read in any of these threads.

Tim - it is purely hypothetical.  That said, I would love to see what the echo chamber thinks on the idea.  Opportunity comes in many forms.

Jim - it isn't having my way - but I do love big happy families.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 11:29:34 PM »
Thanks, Jim.  I get where you're coming from now and I understand.  I likewise hope to get to Dismal River someday and I'm sure CJ will have you anytime.

But answer me this last question, WTF is up with your new athletic director?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 11:30:38 PM »
Chris...

Like Tim, my ears perk up when I hear this kind of talk of two of my favorite clubs linking up.  Hypothetical or not, the idea has serious legs.  I don't know the operational benefits specifically, as I am not in the golf business, but as a consumer of the product I am interested to learn more.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2012, 11:31:50 PM »

Jim - it isn't having my way - but I do love big happy families.

Love you too Dad. ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 11:32:31 PM »
Chris...

Like Tim, my ears perk up when I hear this kind of talk of two of my favorite clubs linking up.  Hypothetical or not, the idea has serious legs.  I don't know the operational benefits specifically, as I am not in the golf business, but as a consumer of the product I am interested to learn more.



Chris,

Please don't sell Dismal to Rupert's brother-in-law.  I don't think they will have room at the table for me.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 11:39:08 PM »
First, I think it is very presumptious to say that Ballyneal was/is doing worse than other golf courses.  Having a note and mortgage foreclosed upon just means it could not meet its debt.  It does not mean that it had any less revenue than other private, destination courses in the country - as there is an expense line to any income statement.  I think this question is further complicated because of it being an inter-family transaction and I understand why the initial investors would be upset at present.  If a bank forecloses, you at least know that they considered the political aspect and explored alternate avenues.  When it is a family foreclosure, you wonder whether they are doing it just to improve their position at the expense of investors.  

Second, I highly doubt that any problems with Ballyneal were due to the golf course or the experience.  Every person that I know loves the course, clubhouse and cottages.

Did they charge too much for initiation or annual dues?  Maybe, but I am sure Sand Hills charges a nice sum.
Did a walking only course limit their potential membership?  Maybe, but I have no clue if the loyal walkers offset that loss.
Were they taking an appropriate share of caddie revenue to offset the lost cart revenue?  Don't know.  
Did they not contain their payroll costs?  Did they not contain the spoilage with food/beverage? Again, common problems with clubs, but don't know.

However, by all accounts Ballyneal appears to have a great infrastructure.  When that is the case, success is just one good owner/manager away.  Just hope it is soon for the club and its members.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2012, 11:43:19 PM »
Going back to your original question,I wonder how close the situation is to Pasa Tiempo?I assume it was a renowned course from the first based upon the players(at least the designer plus Marion H.) I believe it was to be a club,and the depression came along...

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2012, 11:52:24 PM »

Jim - it isn't having my way - but I do love big happy families.

Love you too Dad. ;D


Now I know why tigers eat their young.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2012, 01:30:19 AM »
I am flabbergasted by the cost of golf in the US, both the cost of membership and the cost of building courses.  +$100,000 to join!!! amazing, how can any of you afford to play?

And $75m to build a course!!  Clearly I have never built a course, but can I have a breakdown of how that money was spent - ie/ how much of that was actually the course as opposed to the cost of land, club house, paths, housing etc etc

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2012, 07:14:03 AM »
Very good questions, Josh, but in the good ole US of A the mantra vis a vis golf course development is "Don't ask, Don't tell!"  You would probably have better luck asking Roman Abrahamovich how he got the money to buy and thrown annually $100mm+ into the cess pit that is Chelsea FC.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2012, 09:03:04 AM »
Brad & Keith got it right.

The location coupled with the economy created the difficulties.

Even clubs with favorable locations are feeling the effects of the economy, today, and for the foreseeable future.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2012, 09:49:17 AM »
whether explicitly or implicity through what happened yesterday on Max's

JC -

What happened on Max's?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Rankings, Cognoscenti and Financial Success: A Case Study
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2012, 10:07:43 AM »


The location coupled with the economy created the difficulties.

Even clubs with favorable locations are feeling the effects of the economy, today, and for the foreseeable future.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

There has been a sea change in the golf business.  Priorities have shifted and disposable income is much scarcer.  I don't see these things changing any time soon.  The next generation of club members and retail golfers will be a fraction of the size of my generation.  Clubs everywhere will continue to feel the pinch and bankruptcies and fire sales will keep occurring.  In essence, the golf industry overbuilt the same way the housing industry overbuilt.  Wall Street helped feed the frenzy.  The investment bankers and stock brokers had one bad year and the rest of us will have a tough decade or so.  Unfortunately for the golf industry, there is only a relatively small population of these folks, and they tend to create personal wealth and not that much in terms of jobs, so they aren't going to help swell the population of monied golfers.  Ballyneal might be able to right the ship and Dismal River may continue to succeed, but the business model has been forever altered, it seems to me.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 10:10:25 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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