[JC Jones]

Ballyneal was able to become a "critics" favorite.  The common thought around here is that magazine rankings yield members and financial livelihood.  With Ballyneal, what went wrong?

[Brad Isaacs]

I think the ratings are mostly correct. I think it is the best work of T Doak. Wrong, economy........

How many of the classics were built in the 30's vs. the 20's?

[Keith OHalloran]

Brad, wrong economy to run a destination course with (what I hear was) a high initiation?
Or wrong economy to run a destination club at all?
I have never been to Ballyneal, but I am intrigued by such a highly regarded course struggling as a business .

[Mac Plumart]

Jason...

I love you like a brother.  And I think this thread might be good in a few years, but is there any chance you can take it down for the time being?

This site is about golf course architecture, not Ballyneal and Dismal River.  I love both places very much and I would hate to see either get tarnished and/or people get burnt out on either one of them because they are talked about on GCA.com all the time at the expense of other courses.

As always, do what you feel you need to do.  But I would like to see this thread come down.

EDIT...after Jim's post and Jason's follow-up, maybe this thread can work.  I'll back off my request.  But I am nervous about a train wreck ahead.

[Jim Colton]

JC,

  Great question! My take is Ballyneal opened a year too early. If they had done the Old Mac 10-hole preview type thing in 2006, opened officially in 2007, it wouldn't have been until 2011 before they'd show up in the Golf Digest rankings. Remember, they were 6th in the Best New for Golf Digest in 2006, behind Concession and a few courses that nobody has heard from since. Those early ratings are still hurting it today...I think it is easily in the top 40-50 best courses in the United States and will eventually migrate there once those early votes shake out. Especially with help from the Colton-fueled hype machine.

  The sad truth is nobody really cares about any rankings besides Golf Digest, it is the gold standard for better or worse.

  Ratings or no ratings, I'm sure the course would've had a tough time meeting its debt obligations in this downturn. This is true for nearly every destination club that opened during that time frame.

[JC Jones]

Jim
I agree.  I used Ballyneal because I couldn't think of another modern course that has received such critical acclaim but not had the financial success.  Sure there were some other Doak courses that have closed but they didn't have they widespread love that Ballyneal does.

As with everything, timing is a big key.

[JC Jones]

Mac,

I'm happy to switch the test case I just can't think of another example where a course has had such critical acclaim and not had the financial success.  We always talk around these parts about how ratings matter and drive success yet Ballyneal did everything right on that matter and still couldn't make it.

I think Jim is probably right that it is the unfortunate timing of the opening.  Perhaps this is why I couldn't think of another example.

[Michael George]

I don't know the answer, but I think the thread introduces a good question:

Can a private destination club survive as an all walking course?  

It certainly is not an issue at prominent clubs close to large cities (especially Long Island).  Further, it certainly has worked at the public Bandon (although even Keiser admitted that the par 3 was built for his older guests that simply had problems walking more than 18 a day).  The demographic of most club members are older men - a demographic certainly with more money than the 41, married with 5 kids in private school demographic .  Can a private destination club make it without this large demographic?  

This question is posed by a guy that prefers to never take a cart - unless my wife has given me 2 hours to get to and from the course and be home . . . . ok I take a cart a lot.

Also, ratings matter because members like to brag about them and members like to belong to clubs that they can brag about.  Not most on this site but we are the passionate few.  

[Keith OHalloran]

Jim, can you explain a little more why it would have been better if Ballyneal was not in the ranking until 2011? I think I am missing the importance of that.
Thanks

[Jim Colton]

Jim, can you explain a little more why it would have been better if Ballyneal was not in the ranking until 2011? I think I am missing the importance of that.
Thanks

Keith,

  What I was trying to say is opening in 2006 was the reason that GD didn't show up until 2011. Those votes from 2006 (when the course had greens stimping at 4-5) weighed it down to the point it didn't show up in 2011 and barely did at that. JC says that BN did everything right from a ratings perspective -- I disagree with that. I can confidently say that Ballyneal is the best course on this list, and many others that are not part of the Colton-fueled hype machine would agree with me:

BEST NEW PRIVATE
1. THE CONCESSION G.C. Bradenton, Fla. • 7,470 yards, par 72. • Jack Nicklaus and Tony Jacklin, designers. • Initiation fee: $125,000 (property owner); $150,000. • theconcession.com
2. FOREST CREEK G.C. (NORTH CSE.) • Pinehurst, N.C. • 7,139 yards, par 72 • Tom Fazio. v Fee: $65,000.
3. THE C. AT CARLTON WOODS (FAZIO CSE.) • The Woodlands, Tex. • 7,358 yards, par 72. • Tom Fazio. • Fee: $125,000. • theclubatcarltonwoods.com
4. CHAMPIONS RETREAT G.C. (BLUFF & ISLAND NINES) • Evans, Ga. • 7,265 yards, par 72. •Jack Nicklaus/Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay and Harrison Minchew. • Fee: $30,000 (individual); $35,000 (corporate). v championsretreat.net
5. 3 CREEK RANCH G.C. • Jackson, Wyo. •7,729 yards, par 72. • Rees Jones. • Fee: $150,000. • 3creekranchgolf.com
6. BALLYNEAL • Holyoke, Colo. • 7,147 yards, par 71. • Tom Doak. • Fee: $50,000. • ballyneal.com
7. TUMBLE CREEK G. CSE. AT SUNCADIA • Cle Elum, Wash. • 7,070 yards, par 71. • Tom Doak. • Fee: $60,000. • tumblecreek.com
8. DANIEL ISLAND C. (RALSTON CREEK CSE.) • Daniel Island, S.C. • 7,446 yards, par 72. • Rees Jones. • Fee: $65,000 (property owner); $90,000. • danielisland.com
9. STONE EAGLE C. • Palm Desert, Calif. • 6,840 yards, par 71. • Tom Doak. • Fee: From $50,000 (junior) to $175,000 (full). •stoneeagleclub.com
10. TUHAYE G. CSE. • Tuhaye, Utah. • 7,800 yards, par 72. • Mark O'Meara and Brit Stenson. • Fee: $100,000 (property ownership required). • taliskerclub.com

So what if Ballyneal was #1 Best New, debuted highly in Golf Digest (the gold standard) in 2007 and moved up from there in 2009 & 2011. Might it have attracted more members? I have no idea. I'm sure it would still have its growing pains given the economy, but the truth is the original version wasn't THAT far away from getting over the hump. Perhaps a little quicker progress and some nice trends and you're able to get a more patient lender and better weather the storm. It's really hard to say.

[JC Jones]

Jim,

How many on that list have you played?

All,

What about those other courses, without knowing the details and maybe they just have benefactors with deeper pockets, makes them more financially viable?

[Jud_T]

JC,

I probably received one of the first brochures from Ballyneal (and Stone Eagle).  The numbers never made sense IMO even before the bubble burst.  I could have potentially joined Lost Dunes for the same, or less money and dues (roughly) and been an hour and a half drive away from similarly good golf (or damn close to it)...ratings are only one part of the equation...

[JC Jones]

Jim,

Ironically, it appears that some things at Ballyneal were hurried in an attempt to trump Dismal River's opening.

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/golfers/the-plainsman.aspx

Also interesting to note for Tiger is that apparently they allow cargo shorts at Ballyneal.

[Jim Colton]

Jim,

Ironically, it appears that some things at Ballyneal were hurried in an attempt to trump Dismal River's opening.

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/golfers/the-plainsman.aspx

Also interesting to note for Tiger is that apparently they allow cargo shorts at Ballyneal.

JC,

  I read something recently about the greens being rushed, which surprised me at the time. If I can find the link I'll post it. Looking back, I think it was a mistake to open the course to the masses in 2006. I'm sure there lots of factors that went into that decision, but I wasn't around then. Perhaps Tom or others can chime in.

[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks for the explanation Jim.

[Chris Johnston]

Jim, if the green were rushed, it probably was related to grow in and not Tom's work.  Just a guess.

Here is a question on the topic of case studies...wonder what would happen of Dismal River and Ballyneal were the same club with common members of both?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

Ironically, it appears that some things at Ballyneal were hurried in an attempt to trump Dismal River's opening.

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/golfers/the-plainsman.aspx

Also interesting to note for Tiger is that apparently they allow cargo shorts at Ballyneal.

JC,

  I read something recently about the greens being rushed, which surprised me at the time. If I can find the link I'll post it. Looking back, I think it was a mistake to open the course to the masses in 2006. I'm sure there lots of factors that went into that decision, but I wasn't around then. Perhaps Tom or others can chime in.

JC [and J.C.]:

I do think that Ballyneal opened a bit early to try and beat Dismal River to market.  We were not in the least rushed in building the course, but instead of taking a year to grow it in, they took half a year ... and they are certainly not the first club to do that.  Also, fescue greens are generally slower to grow in than bentgrass or any other grass.  They made the right move to let Dave Hensley do what was right for the health of the grass, but they did a bad job of explaining it to early visitors, to the point that many early visitors assume fescue greens are just automatically slow.

As for other examples for this discussion, just look at the rest of the courses on that list you published.  Concession is essentially bankrupt, I believe, even though they had a heck of a lot more money than Rupert did.  Stone Eagle was built for $75 million and sold for $10.5 million.  I'm not familiar with the others on that list, but I'll bet those are not the only ones.

Congnoscenti or no, you've got to hit the market at the right time to succeed.  And you've got to be managed well.  And it's a lot easier if you're in the right location. 

[Mac Plumart]

I do think that Ballyneal opened a bit early to try and beat Dismal River to market.

Hmmm....this explains everything.


Here is a question on the topic of case studies...wonder what would happen of Dismal River and Ballyneal were the same club with common members of both?

Chris...I think this is a great idea and I've had many others (including my clients who are entrepeneurs and business owners) say the exact same thing and they can not believe that the clubs haven't united already.

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - the thing to remember about the cognoscenti is that they're lazy.

Peter

[JC Jones]

JC - the thing to remember about the cognoscenti is that they're lazy.

Peter

I think you've just explained the desire to criticize golf courses to which you (2nd person) haven't been.

[JC Jones]

I do think that Ballyneal opened a bit early to try and beat Dismal River to market.

Hmmm....this explains everything.

Mac,

Perhaps not everything but when I read that article it sure was interesting to see the fascination with Dismal River and the insecurity coming from the top down.  Although not specifically mentioned, I also inferred a reason behind the old "Sand Hills is a Doak 6" claim we used to see.

Maybe some of the downfall of Ballyneal came from focusing on others and not their own world class golf course?

[Chris Johnston]

JC

When you compete with friends, you always stand to lose...the competition or the friend.

[Sven Nilsen]

I do think that Ballyneal opened a bit early to try and beat Dismal River to market.

Hmmm....this explains everything.

Mac,

Perhaps not everything but when I read that article it sure was interesting to see the fascination with Dismal River and the insecurity coming from the top down.  Although not specifically mentioned, I also inferred a reason behind the old "Sand Hills is a Doak 6" claim we used to see.

Maybe some of the downfall of Ballyneal came from focusing on others and not their own world class golf course?

I am guessing that you in no way intended this as a statement about the members at Ballyneal.  You're a better man than that, JC.

[Eric Smith]

Here is a question on the topic of case studies...wonder what would happen of Dismal River and Ballyneal were the same club with common members of both?

I'm listening.

[David Kelly]

Maybe some of the downfall of Ballyneal came from focusing on others and not their own world class golf course?

Well played, sir.

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