[David Harshbarger]

There are a number of genres of GCA that are discussed on the board, with Minimalism and Naturalism being two that have a lot of currency.

Two genres that I haven't seen much of here, lifted from the world of fine art, are folk and naive art.  While the taxonomies may not always be clear, these genres generally represent the product of people working outside the mainstream, often without any professional training, or working in an isolated community with its own standards. 

Within the world of GCA, do folks have examples of courses that would qualify as Folk or Naive GCA?  What do they have to contribute to the larger understanding of GCA?

(For this discussion, I would exclude courses designed by an LA, like the stereotypical muni, which while lacking many qualities of a more sophisticated design, is still built within the tradition and standards of GCA).

Dave

[Jim_Kennedy]

http://www.pasturegolf.com/

http://scotlandyards.com/

[Peter Pallotta]

A wonderful topic, David - and one that I can't contribute to at all!  I hope others jump in.  The "un-tutored" and "un-learned/un-lettered" connotations of the folk art label (and ethos?) has always interested me and troubled me at the same time.  There is more than a hint of condescension in the establishment's use of the word -- as if a B.A. or M.A. or PhD in and of themselves conferred some special status and import; or as if having the money enough to splurge on such art allowed one to dictate/prescribe its meaning for the rest of us, and even for the artist himself.

Peter

[David_Tepper]

This one might be a little too sophisticated to be considered folk or naive, but it is about a guy who designed and built his own golf course:

http://www.trinitasgolf.com/Trinitas%20NCGA%20Article.pdf

[Jason Topp]

The Classic near Brainerd Minnesota meets the definition of Naive.  It was designed by the resort's Superintendant.  The course is very popular and highly regarded.  It is one of the most beautiful courses in Minnesota, cut out of a forest of birch, pines and other hardwoods., located on fairly hilly terrain.

http://www.maddens.com/the-classic-course.html

Aerial tour:  http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/classicmaddens/aerial.htm

Some features of the design that I suspect have something to do with the choice of architect:

1.  The course is difficult.  While not an incredibly tight course, high handicaps lose a large number of balls and low handicaps stuggle to shoot a good score.  While forced carries are not overly extreme in difficulty for the most part, there are ten of them.  
2.  The course contains a number of memorable holes that are unconventional.  
- The 4th is a long par four that requires a tee shot over very tall trees or through a small gap in the trees to have an approach of under 200 yards.   The hole does not meet any definition of fair but attempting to cut the corner is a thrilling shot that looks impossible but is very doable.
- The 7th is an extraordinarily difficult par four – into the normal wind with the green jutting out into a lake to the right, a crossing stream in front of the green and not much bailout right.  
- The 8th is an uphill tee shot that must either be squeezed into a 15 yard fairway or must achieve a long carry that I can never make.  The approach is then downhill to a green that slopes away and to the left.
- The 10th is a very short par five that tempts many to go over the fronting water hazard to reach the green in two, particularly because the layup is tight – between trees and a creek.
- The 12th is a long par three with a mound in the front middle of a huge green.
- The 13th is a par five of over 600 yards somewhat uphill which pinches the 2nd shot landing area significantly.
- The 16th is a par five where a perfectly placed tee shot can catch a hill and allow a player to go for it in two.  If aggressive, the approach is from a downhill lie to a giant green where the back left portion is several feet lower than the front left.  
3.  The course has a number of features that are unnatural – cart paths that are close to the fairway and a threat to be hit at any time, rock formations and eye candy bunkering.  

The course is one of my favorite in Minnesota, in part because it does not fit into the formulas that seem to be at the heart of many designs.   It also provides a difficult test while at the same time offering a number of chances to gamble in order to make up for a poor round with a press.

[Jim_Kennedy]

This one might be a little too sophisticated to be considered folk or naive, but it is about a guy who designed and built his own golf course:

http://www.trinitasgolf.com/Trinitas%20NCGA%20Article.pdf

David,
After reading the article I'd say this one falls under the heading of religious or iconic art. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Jason,

So you're obsessed with par?  Sounds like the super created a bunch of half-par-plus holes...Set par at 76 for the day and have at it.

[Ronald Montesano]

My contributions:

http://www.alleghenyhillsgolfcourse.com/scorecard.php (the first five holes play through an apple orchard...it's quite nutty.)

http://www.arcadegolfclub.com/ (Turkey Run doesn't have a site...amazing, huh?)

http://www.blueberryhillgc.com/

and the king of them all...http://bedrockgolf.com/

[Colin Macqueen]

Jim, Dave,

"After reading the article I'd say this one falls under the heading of religious or iconic art."

but  "a foreclosure auction on the Trinitas golf course near Wallace has been postponed." for a week or so.

It will be a miracle if it is saved methinks.

Cheers Colin

[David Harshbarger]

Bedrock seems to get to the heart of it:

Why No mosquitoes you ask?  We have swallows !  Swallows live off of bugs of all kinds! We DON'T HAVE mosquitoes OR ANY OTHER PESTS that ruin your round of golf or your company picnic.  Come and enjoy Your day at our BEDROCK GOLF COURSE.

That's a value prop I don't think you'll see on many Troon-managed course websites.

Some of the Cow Pasture courses seem to have it, that Folk quality, also.  

The Trinitas course, with the looming foreclosure, may land more in the Naive category, and the Classic Course, built by the Super, sounds like it has quite a few features that are outside the standard canon, but in most regards is a regular course.

Hypothetical question: if Bedrock or your local like course was all there was to play, would you still play golf?  Would the spirit of the "gentle sprite" carry you above the random turf selection, ambiguous margins and playing corridors, and irregular playing surfaces?  Or would you hang up your clubs and find another pastime?

Maybe the bar to qualify for these genres, to paraphrase Beck, is "Two lawn mowers and hole cutter"

[Mike_Young]

I would guess about 8000 of the course sin the US would fit this description....and that is not meant to label them as bad..if anything they probably fit their environment better than most if they have survived this long.

[Colin Macqueen]

David, Not hypothetical at all!

How amusing that you ask this "sprite" if he would hang up his clubs AND mention cow pastures all in the one paragraph.  My first hits of a golf ball were not on a course but in the cow filled, cowpat-ridden fields adjacent to our home.  I had to contend with shitty shots in more ways than one. On many occasions I had to lift and CLEAN my ball after finding it. Hitting your ball into the crap was no truism just true! Granted I did have wide playing corridors but then you did not have any "landmarks" to cue you in and judging how far your ball went was really difficult hence many were lost.

Random turf selection I had aplenty, out of bounds needed a two hundred yard slice which was beyond even my abilities. Many a placid cow and the occasional nasty bull were hazards but in answer to your question I never did find another pastime just another pasture!

Cheers Colin

[David Harshbarger]

Peter,

There is more than a bit of condescension in the terms, I agree.  What I think of in the Folk or Naive genre, even in the visual arts, are pieces that if judged by mainstream criteria, are not good.  If you compare Bedrock to any local Private club, you'd laugh out loud the discrepancy is so great.  

But then, maybe you'll find things that you just would never-ever find on another golf course.  For example, at Ondawa Greens they added a sand trap, (not a bunker) to the 3rd green.  What's unique is that the sand trap was made by building up a semi-circular rock wall at the low point of the green, and filling it with sand.  Umm...hope you don't find your ball nestled up against that lip.

The Classic course's carry over trees, not going to see that very often.

So maybe the lesson for GCA in these courses isn't about the GCA, per se, but about how we as golfers react when there's such a pronounced disconnect between our expectations of what a courses should be, and what we are forced to confront on a Folk or Naive course?

So, for example, if you see a rock-wall enclosed sand box, is it unfair, or bad architecture?  Or is it an unconventional hazard that demands our attention in a different way?  Can engaging with courses that are made without knowledge of the conventions of GCA make us better at seeing and engaging on courses that fit within the main stream?  Isn't this challenge to our assumptions and blinders done more effectively on a course designed outside the conventions of GCA than on one designed within the assumptions, but in a way devoid of interest?

To your point, Mike, I can't imagine there are 8000 courses in the US that have a Folk or Naive sensibility.  To get to that number, you'd have to bring in a lot of uninteresting, insipid courses that dull the spirit through their extreme conventionality.  Gah!

Think Eliza Doolittle's father in "My Fair Lady".  A most unconventional moralist, who wouldn't know what a moralist was, but most interesting all-the-same.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
I don't think I'd hang 'em up, the game would just assume a different role, but I'd most likely move to another area.    

[Garland Bayley]

...

To your point, Mike, I can't imagine there are 8000 courses in the US that have a Folk or Naive sensibility.  To get to that number, you'd have to bring in a lot of uninteresting, insipid courses that dull the spirit through their extreme conventionality.  Gah!

...

And here I thought it was the tour pros that were creating "insipid courses" with "extreme conventionality". Perhaps getting out on some folk and naive courses that use the lay of the land is the order of the day.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

So you're obsessed with par?  Sounds like the super created a bunch of half-par-plus holes...Set par at 76 for the day and have at it.

Ronald - in case I was not clear, I love this golf course.  I think the fact that it was created by a Superintendant makes the course a bit different than what one of the bigger names would have created.  I see that as a positive. 

[Dan King]

Come to the King's Putter in 2013, the sesquicentennial of the Battle of Gettysburg. We will be creating a course down on the beach and having a go at it.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's about the same as mine, except it's got about forty-eight less cart-path grooves on the bottom and twenty less spike marks on the face.
 --Craig Stadler (comparing his 8813 Wilson putter to Ben Crenshaw's)

[Kalen Braley]

Come to the King's Putter in 2013, the sesquicentennial of the Battle of Gettysburg. We will be creating a course down on the beach and having a go at it.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's about the same as mine, except it's got about forty-eight less cart-path grooves on the bottom and twenty less spike marks on the face.
 --Craig Stadler (comparing his 8813 Wilson putter to Ben Crenshaw's)

Dan,

Any other details on KP 2013?  Within range of the beach sounds like a terrific start!!

[Garland Bayley]

Come to the King's Putter in 2013, the sesquicentennial of the Battle of Gettysburg. We will be creating a course down on the beach and having a go at it.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's about the same as mine, except it's got about forty-eight less cart-path grooves on the bottom and twenty less spike marks on the face.
 --Craig Stadler (comparing his 8813 Wilson putter to Ben Crenshaw's)

Dan,

Any other details on KP 2013?  Within range of the beach sounds like a terrific start!!

I say we go into the Pismo Dunes and hit balls at the bikers. Moving targets, the new standard in GCA.

[David Harshbarger]

Come to the King's Putter in 2013, the sesquicentennial of the Battle of Gettysburg. We will be creating a course down on the beach and having a go at it.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's about the same as mine, except it's got about forty-eight less cart-path grooves on the bottom and twenty less spike marks on the face.
 --Craig Stadler (comparing his 8813 Wilson putter to Ben Crenshaw's)

Why wait?  How about flash-mob golf? Send out the word, descend on some open space with a Sunday bag a few stakes, and some spray paint to mark "holes" and get it on? Hire a "forekeeper" to run ahead and stake the target.  GCA meets performance art!

[Dan King]

The current plan is to celebrate the sesquicentennial of the Battle of Gettysburg with King's Putter 2013. Blue will be the required color for the northern squad and grey the color for the south. Special bonus points for coming in Civil War regalia. We will be doing it on the central coast in California around SLO.  I have a piece of a four-bedroom house in Cayucos, and either we can pile people on floors, futons, etc... or we can see about renting the place next door.

The idea in 2013 is to keep it reasonably cheap -- so we can all have money left over to buy central coast wines.

Watch for more announcements after the completion of King's Putter 2012.

We could setup a folk or naive GCA at the Moro Bay Sans Spit:
http://youtu.be/WnD-JvcvJtw

Cheers,
Dan King

Cheap golf, it is accepted, is the Scotsman's birthright.
 --Peter Dobereiner

[Ronald Montesano]

Jason,

I apologize...I was quick with the word "obsessed" and one should never be thus. You painted a very clear picture of your affection for the course. I'd love to play it one day, based solely on your descriptions.

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