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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 02:44:03 PM »
Watershed moment..I thik that is a stretch, especially before the course is even built.
Knowing Olympic development projects as I do, I will wait and see what the finasl product looks like.
I do not know Gil at all, love his work and ablilty to create very interseting gof courses, but I just hope he is allowed to build what HE wants and does not become 'instructed" to incorporate details that he may not really want in the interest of Olympic requests.

I agree with many on here who admit that  we are a minority bunch on this site,  amidst the big picture of the golfing world and that most dont even care about who bulds the course.

That been said in this economy of few courses being built any news has to be good news.

RJ_Daley

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2012, 02:54:39 PM »
Yeah, I think this is a watershed moment or week for "a" golf course architect, not for architecture.  I heard Trump say he "has no budget for Gil" implying he can completely disregard 'minimalism' if that is where his Blue Monster concepts or change orders and redesigning on the fly takes him.  Will Trump stay out of Gil's way?  What if he decides he needs more sizzle to sell the Trump lifestyle and brand, and asks Gil to put in champagne waterfalls, and chocolate syrup ponds, and call it the brown monster?  Just being sarcastic of course... but what has minimalism got to do with it?  It is more about the recognition of the craftsmanship of the small shop, design/build, and the archie or top associate on-site more or less constantly to do those design on the fly adjustments.  The recognition over a couple of decades seems to be that the design/build, guy on site, knows the process from the dirt up, respects the land and what it offers as a naturalist approach, is more of what this whole slow tide  (not watershed) of changing perception of golf course architecture quality is about.   $5 million doesn't seem to be a huge number, if that is Gil's budget in Rio.  (I really don't have any idea, given what 5 million can or can't buy down there).  But, Gil says he plans on being in Rio nearly constantly during this project.  So, I'm thinking he may be caught in a bit of a dual opposite work mode, if Trumpster gives him a 'no' budget - implied unlimited one, and then at the same time is producing a high profile course of what seems modest budget, in Rio.  

All of us speculating and picking apart these archies business models, and defining their philosophy for them, must be quite amusing to them.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Gil's office or den as I'm sure he is reading all this...  ;) ;D ::)  

So, Gil should answer this.  Is this his watershed moment or week with two huge announcements, or golf course architecture's watershed moment... or era?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jud_T

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2012, 03:09:00 PM »
Of course it's a process and this is just another milestone in that process.  But just as Sand Hills or Bandon aren't the be all and end all of the modern golden age, in hindsight they were significant moments on the historical timeline of GCA.  This may be another one where the stuff that's been going on all along under the public's radar begins to seep out beyond the cognoscenti.   Get out of our own little bubble for a moment and think of the potential ramifications for development of the game in Latin America and Asia.  I may be wrong, but this is what I believe Tom saw as the real brass ring here, as opposed to putting in a ton of sweat equity in Rio for less than his pay grade simply to burnish the brand name...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 03:26:24 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve Salmen

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2012, 04:43:54 PM »
Jud,

I don't think it's going to really make that big of a difference.  What it says to me is the committee that made the decision was not really swayed politically (unless I'm missing something) and went with what they thought was the best bid.  It should be fantastic for the career of Mr. Hanse, especially if the course turns out wonderful.  However, I think golf developers will still prefer the marquee name over the smaller shops.

I actually take pride in being an overseas member of a club whose second course was designed by Mr. Hanse, and despite my local friends not caring for it much, I love it.

This is the best decision an olympic committee has made since they eliminated Chicago from getting the 2016 games.

Steve

David Harshbarger

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 09:03:09 PM »
Gobbling up the commentary on this really exciting development, the word that really jumps out at me that best exemplifies the trend around which this could be a watershed is....

Sustainability.

While there are a lot of over elements of the picture that attract attention, the comment in the announcement that had odd prominence was the way native plants and a reduces maintenance footprint were mentioned.  That ties directly to the radical reworking of Pinehurst #2.  It ties in with Rustic Canyon.  And looking out 10-15 years, water, particularly, even reclaimed water, will be even more coveted than today, and the courses like this, among many, will be seen as leading the path forward.

So yes, this is a watershed moment.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ian Andrew

Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2012, 10:04:13 PM »
muddled my thoughts - wish there was a delete button still
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 10:41:30 PM by Ian Andrew »

David Harshbarger

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2012, 10:23:01 PM »
Ian, I think you called out sustainability in your posts, and that your note of it is what registered for me.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2012, 11:01:49 PM »
Of course it's a process and this is just another milestone in that process.  But just as Sand Hills or Bandon aren't the be all and end all of the modern golden age, in hindsight they were significant moments on the historical timeline of GCA.  This may be another one where the stuff that's been going on all along under the public's radar begins to seep out beyond the cognoscenti.   Get out of our own little bubble for a moment and think of the potential ramifications for development of the game in Latin America and Asia.  I may be wrong, but this is what I believe Tom saw as the real brass ring here, beyond putting in a ton of sweat equity in Rio for less than his pay grade simply to burnish the brand name...

Jud:

I am not sure what you are saying you thought I "saw as the real bass ring here".  I saw it [and presented it] as a chance to affect the future of golf in Brazil and perhaps in South America, much the same as Dr. MacKenzie affected the future of golf in Australia, 85 years ago.

I know that some people won't believe me, but I had zero interest in burnishing my own brand name.  I absolutely hate it when potential clients talk about my "brand".  One of the few times I have ever seen Bill Coore embarrassed was when someone at Streamsong joked something to the effect that I was too cheap to buy company caps for my crew as the Coore & Crenshaw team proudly wore, and I responded that our mission there was to burnish the Streamsong brand, not our own.

The goal is to build a great golf course, not to burnish your brand.  Peter Pallotta had a great thread about that just a couple of days ago -- how the best work is done when the mind is clear and the intent is pure.  It seems like a lot of people (including you, Jud) have forgotten that in your analysis of what's important about the Olympic commission.  Hopefully, Gil won't forget.

P.S.  Mr. Nuzman stressed in his initial remarks to us that the goal of the Rio Olympics was to make a statement about Sustainability to the entire world, and that the golf course should reflect that.  I don't know if all of the finalists in the process took that message to heart, but I can assure you that Gil Hanse was not the only one who did.

David Harshbarger

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2012, 11:45:50 PM »
Tom,

When you look at the trajectory of GCA as it relates to sustainability, do you see a changing of the guard as it relates to sustainability, both in principals, and in firm associates? 

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 12:26:04 AM »
Tom,

When you look at the trajectory of GCA as it relates to sustainability, do you see a changing of the guard as it relates to sustainability, both in principals, and in firm associates? 

Dave

David:

There is no question that the under-40 crowd, and especially the under-30 crowd, put sustainable design on a different pedestal than those my age do.  It's not just from college, the younger ones have been hearing about it since kindergarten.

The only reason I'm attuned to sustainability is spending my year in Scotland after college and hanging out with people like Walter Woods, who would go down to the Bruce Embankment in St. Andrews and pick up the kelp off the rocks and compost it, instead of spending the town's money on fertilizer.  [That is why I'm convinced that the Golf Environment Organization have the best chance to have an impact on this subject in the future, and I've given them as much support as I can.]  I'm sure Gil had the same experience five years later, when he lived in Scotland on the same scholarship I got, also courtesy of Cornell University.  But that was NOT where America was in the 80's and 90's.

The funny thing is, that's where it was for a brief time in the 1970's.  One of my first slides for my Olympic presentation was of the TPC at Sawgrass when it opened in 1981.  It was built during the Carter administration, and Mr. Dye designed it as a low-maintenance golf course ... sustainable wasn't a popular term then, but that's what it was.  But it only took a couple of years of prosperity [and the egos at PGA Tour headquarters] to turn the TPC from a green golf course into a bright green golf course.  Maybe they didn't appreciate it that I pointed that out!

Jud_T

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 03:32:49 AM »
Of course it's a process and this is just another milestone in that process.  But just as Sand Hills or Bandon aren't the be all and end all of the modern golden age, in hindsight they were significant moments on the historical timeline of GCA.  This may be another one where the stuff that's been going on all along under the public's radar begins to seep out beyond the cognoscenti.   Get out of our own little bubble for a moment and think of the potential ramifications for development of the game in Latin America and Asia.  I may be wrong, but this is what I believe Tom saw as the real brass ring here, as opposed to putting in a ton of sweat equity in Rio for less than his pay grade simply to burnish the brand name...


The goal is to build a great golf course, not to burnish your brand.  Peter Pallotta had a great thread about that just a couple of days ago -- how the best work is done when the mind is clear and the intent is pure.  It seems like a lot of people (including you, Jud) have forgotten that in your analysis of what's important about the Olympic commission.  Hopefully, Gil won't forget.


"beyond" changed to "as opposed to" above.  In my own feeble way I was trying to say something about the greater good of the game as the brass ring and not implying that you care much about burnishing.  That's what happens when you mix stream of consciousness blogging with a twisted sense of humor.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 03:37:37 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tony Ristola

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 04:27:02 AM »
It is a watershed in that a lesser known craftsman beat out a field filled with celebrity golfers? Yes. Obviously so. I am sure nobody that had to put their entire fortune on the line in a bet would have picked Gil Hanse.

Is it a watershed, a Tipping Point that will allow this to repeatedly happen? I don't see it. It may help on occasion for those who practice in a similar manner. There aren't but a tiny group who work in the manner of Gil Hanse. You can chop off a lot of fingers and still count the number.

McSignature architects are a default choice by many developers and will remain so. Until the dominant crop retire, they'll continue to add to their laundry list of projects. After they retire, the landscape will be different.

It's a big day for golf architecture, will generate a significant amount of discussion, and that's a good thing for the handful of practitioners who work in a similar manner.

Many congratulations to Team Hanse. It's a great day for golf architecture.



Pete Blaisdell

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 06:54:00 AM »
Congratulations to Gil and his team. There is no doubt in my mind that the Olympic course at Rio will be an outstanding design and a stern test for the players. That being said, I also feel that when the games are over and all the hoopla and people have gone home, what will remain will be a course that will certainly be a joy to play for all handicaps.

I got my first look at Boston Golf Club a couple of years ago at a US Amateur qualifier and I was very impressed with Gil's use of the land that he was given. The green settings wre superb and strategy was demanded off the tee. The routing was a bit of a quirk and that is understandable given the lay of the land . I thought the placement of the forward tees were pure genius. I always look at that when I see a new course. With the demand for CHAMPIONSHIP (I still don't know what that means) courses in the last 20 years, It's nice to see architects take time to place the forward tees properly to give all a challenge and an opportunity for an enjoyable round without getting beat up. Gil did that at BGC as well as Ben/Bill at Old Sandwich. We are fortunate up here in New England to have our fair share of great tracks and the recent additions of BGC/OS fit in nicely.

Again, good for Gil. He will not dissapoint.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Tim Nugent

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 10:00:13 AM »
It is a watershed in that a lesser known craftsman beat out a field filled with celebrity golfers? Yes. Obviously so. I am sure nobody that had to put their entire fortune on the line in a bet would have picked Gil Hanse.

Is it a watershed, a Tipping Point that will allow this to repeatedly happen? I don't see it. It may help on occasion for those who practice in a similar manner. There aren't but a tiny group who work in the manner of Gil Hanse. You can chop off a lot of fingers and still count the number.

McSignature architects are a default choice by many developers and will remain so. Until the dominant crop retire, they'll continue to add to their laundry list of projects. After they retire, the landscape will be different.

It's a big day for golf architecture, will generate a significant amount of discussion, and that's a good thing for the handful of practitioners who work in a similar manner.

Many congratulations to Team Hanse. It's a great day for golf architecture.

McSignature;D ;D ;D Tony, that is too good.  I think you have coined a term.  I hope you don't mind if I repeat it.
Alas, not many golf architects retire (most die with their boots on). Not to say some might migrate to other lines of employment.

Many have defined just what exactly the Watershed moment is to them. 

While I agree that the aveage grill room player has no clue as to what's going on, I venture to say he never did nor will - he just takes what is offered.

Nor will this relate to anything Minimalism - I actually think that was a past Moment that has evolved into what we see as Naturalisim and sustainability is a derivative of that.

To me, the Watershed Moment is the fact that a Non-Golf visionary group made the decision that they did not need the marketing hype that comes with the IMG model.

I said Non-Golf visionary to expound upon the notion that a select group of visonaries (those listed above) have been selecting this avenue for over a decade already. The difference is they were selecting those who they felt could carry out THEIR vision, the Build It and THey Will Come mindset.  And if that failed, well, it was their money that was at stake, not the CEO's of their corporation. 

As I've seen over the decades in golf development, many of the decision makers are not the top guy in the company.  It is more important to them they don't strike out than it is for them to hit a home run.  In many cases, they just look around and see what they last guy down the street did and copy that in a "if it worked for them, it will work for me".  Unfortunately, in the 80's and 90's, when all the courses were being built, this led to a majority to be decided upon in this manner.  No Risk, Stay Safe.

The Visionary developers broke from that mold because it was their money and they could afford the risk.  But they weren't going to buy insurance in the form of the Marketing Marqee name.  They were assute enough to realize that behind Mr. McSignature (see how I already worked that in ;D), there was a stable of talented but often reigned-in Journeymen architects actually doing all the heavy lifting, so why not cut to the chase and just get one of them to do the work, cut out the bloated expense, and see were that off-the-leash freedom takes them.

I hope that is what the IOC thought, but the fact that they prescibed to unilaterally impose fee and budget limits up front show that they weren't quite sure if they wouuld get what they were after if they let the free market prevail. 

Let's hope, in a decade or 2, when we look back on this moment  we do see that this is where Developers (not Visonaries) began to realize that they are better served with Journeyman Architects  and not McSignatures. 

I don't think (except with maybe dropping the Atom Bomb) do we know a Watershed Moment when it happens but rather it must be defined by the path history takes.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jay Flemma

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 06:19:50 PM »
I think it's a huge moment for the minimalist movement and a high water mark (among more to come) in this, the second golden age of GCA (or platinum age, if you prefer)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill Brightly

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 08:24:49 PM »
Call me a dreamer, but I have this recurring thought that the vast majority of golfers would come to share the GCA "groupthink" on minalism if they were only exposed to more often. I think Gil's selection is an important step, perhaps a tipping point. But as I said earlier, I think Trump hiring Gil may have more impact. Tonight I had a beer at my club with a guy who also belongs to Trump Bedminster in New Jersey. He had heard about the possibilty of a third course, but did not know anything about the rumor that JU might be hired, and did not know who he was. I gave him a brief summary of his work and told him I thought it would be a great compliment to the site, and he seemed psyched. If we envision a new course in Bedminster about the time Gil's work is completed in Doral, and these courses draw rave reviews, I think those would be a really significant moments. The guys who play these courses generallly belong to several clubs, talk to so many golfers, bring in guests from all over, and this will absolutely help "spread the word" about a different type of golf course architecture. Rather than "build it and they will come" I would say "let them play it and they will love it."

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 08:35:02 PM »
I think it is significant or a watershed moment that Gil got the job. The next step is what he does with the opportunity. this will tell if a change in Architecture worldwide occurs. Tom may argue that his work on the world stage  has already set this in motion.

Mac Plumart

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 08:39:32 PM »
I agree with this sentiment.

I am glad that Tom is on record saying he doesn't care who gets credit...I agree.  For the good of the game, this NEEDS to happen.  Many architects, golfers, businessmen, have contributed to this movement and now it is taking center stage.  Let's cross our fingers Gil and his team knock it out of the park.  The Olympians embrace it.  And it becomes common place in the world of golf.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2012, 09:02:38 PM »

To me, the Watershed Moment is the fact that a Non-Golf visionary group made the decision that they did not need the marketing hype that comes with the IMG model.

I said Non-Golf visionary to expound upon the notion that a select group of visonaries (those listed above) have been selecting this avenue for over a decade already. The difference is they were selecting those who they felt could carry out THEIR vision, the Build It and THey Will Come mindset.  And if that failed, well, it was their money that was at stake, not the CEO's of their corporation. 


Tim:

I am not sure you've got this quite right.

To me, the Rio2016 committee understood something that few outsiders seemed to recognize -- that the Rio Olympics is its own brand, and that it doesn't need a golf course design brand, in fact the project might be DIMINISHED by a same-old, same-old golf course design brand.  Obviously, the signature architects didn't see that one coming, in fact they are probably still have trouble relating to it.

That is not much different than the "visionaries" you cite.  Mike Keiser understood from the start that the Pacific Ocean was his real brand. He didn't need a name architect, so much as someone who would make the most of the beautiful land he'd bought.  And there was no doubt in his mind that a Nicklaus or Fazio course by the ocean would be following the herd, instead of leading it.  Likewise, Mark Parsinen recognized that his real brand was links golf in Scotland ... not a big name.

Dick Youngscap recognized that the Sand Hills were a brand of its own -- the logo pretty much proves it -- but he DID need Ben Crenshaw's name and reputation to help convince a few people it would work.

Signature golf design was never about golf ... it was about real estate.  Eventually, the guys who wanted to develop a reputation for GOLF realized they needed to hire somebody else.  Anyway, the real estate golf model is over, and I'm guessing the signature design model is close on its heels.

Mac Plumart

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2012, 09:10:36 PM »
Signature golf design was never about golf ... it was about real estate.  Eventually, the guys who wanted to develop a reputation for GOLF realized they needed to hire somebody else.  Anyway, the real estate golf model is over, and I'm guessing the signature design model is close on its heels.

The game returns to the game? Sounds like it.  I'm pumped about that.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2012, 09:13:52 PM »
The game returns to the game? Sounds like it.  I'm pumped about that.

Well, there will be a lot fewer new courses to be pumped about, and probably a lot fewer golf architects getting chances to show their stuff.  But some of them will be very good.

My watershed moment will just have to be building one of the ten best courses in the world -- in China.  If I can pull that one off, it will be pretty big.

Mac Plumart

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2012, 09:20:52 PM »
DMK guarantees a Top 50 in GB and Doak goes Top 10 in China!!!  I love it!!  (I know you didn't guarantee it and I'm just being a goof).  But still that sounds like something amazing.

I'm not in the business, so I'll take fewer new courses of higher quality rather than the inverse.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2012, 09:38:18 PM »
Well said Tom, really well said.

JC Urbina

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2012, 10:18:42 PM »
Tom,

Was the property in Brazil Top Ten land?

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Watershed Moment in GCA?
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 11:03:52 PM »
Tom,

Was the property in Brazil Top Ten land?

Jim:

I don't know if I have ever seen top ten land before -- or at least, we weren't quite good enough to get there.  ;)  Well, I guess we saw Sand Hills before anything happened, so, I have.

The site in Rio is no Sand Hills, but really, I don't think the goal in Rio is a top ten course.  I think their goal is to have a great championship and then to have a great venue for affordable public golf ... kind of like Common Ground on a grander scale.  And, as stated previously, to make the golf course a model of sustainability for the world.  Which, if you ask me, is a great goal.

The land in China [for Mulan Bay, our second project, which has still yet to start] might be top ten land.  It is the beautiful block of marble that Peter Pallotta was describing the other day.  Right now it's too steep, and it will take a LOT of patient whittling away, but I do think the raw potential is up there with anything -- think of it as Pine Valley on the ocean.  The only thing it DOESN'T have is great vegetation, which you and I know was one of the keys to making Pacific Dunes a top twenty course.  We'll have to figure out how to solve that as we go, and it might take a few years.  But it took a few years at Pine Valley, too.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:00:42 AM by Tom_Doak »

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