[Tom_Doak]

Ross,

Please name a scenario of a shot on any hole at Augusta that I would not have seen by watching the Masters for the last 43 years.  I really don't care if it is impossible for a 22 handicap to hold the 12th green.

John:

I'll name one for you.  The first time I played the course -- which was the day after the 1983 Masters, after spending seven days walking the course and observing play, not to mention all the times I've seen it on TV -- I missed the 16th green to the right.  I had NO IDEA how severe the recovery shot was from over there; it was darned near impossible to try to get the ball onto the green and not wind up in the pond on the other side.

The reason I had no idea is that you rarely see Masters competitors over to the right of #16 ... they all know it's death over there.  In fact, that's why 16 is one of the few holes where you will ever see pros hit the ball in the water from the tee; because it's better to be in the water lying one, than lying two!

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

I watched Craig Stadler hit practice bunker shots from the right side.  They were like trick shots how softly he could make them land. I'm not sure even he would have had the courage to hit that shot in competition when just knocking it on the green and taking a 4 is so much safer.

How would you (or anyone else) see an 18 handicap play #12?  It almost seems impossible to finish, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Funny, but #12 really hasn't seemed as difficult to me as they make it out to be.  When I first saw it in person, how shallow the green was and how there is no tilt at all to help you hold it, I thought it would be impossible.  I'm only 1-for-3 in hitting the green in regulation, but the other times I have been in the front bunker and that is no big deal.  An 18-handicap would make X 25-50% of the time, but would make 3 occasionally and 4 or 5 reasonably often.

[Mike Hendren]

I could easily see picking up at 3, 9 and 15 and 16.  Fairway wood at the 8th would kill any remaining worms on site.  My best bets would be to bunker approaches.  I don't believe I could hit the 10th green in a dozen attempts. 

Bogey (or worse)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I agree with you about the need for isolation in evaluating a golf course.

JakaB's question about walking ANGC had a context or perspective, and that perspective was "OUTSIDE" the ropes.

That's a different perspective from inside the ropes or playing the golf course.

JakaB,

I think you HAVE to play or walk ANGC INSIDE the ropes in order to get the proper perspective.

[Tom ORourke]

I have not played it but have walked it a number of times. I have also played a number of very hilly courses so I have a feel for the kind of game you need to hit from downslopes, sideslopes, etc. Augusta's are severe. Anyone who has been there knows tv just can not show how severe the slopes are. The 13th fairway looks like the turn at Daytona, the 14th green looks like a bad potato chip, the 1st green is nasty, etc. A bad golfer can not play that course. No way. Even from the white tees. Especially 1, 5, 9 and 10. I think you can learn just how severe you can make a golf course as far as the types of lies you need to play from into greens that really demand some type of positioning rather than just slapping it up there somewhere to try to get up and down. It makes all other hilly courses seem fairly easy. How would people react if it was built today and we looked at it for the first time? Some amount would call it too sloped, too difficult, unfair, etc. It is a great test for the best players in the world. I think most first time guests could have their handicap doubled and still not break 70.    

[Harwell Palmer]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

Please note that I was lucky enough to attend one practice round in 1997 and religiously have followed the television coverage since the invention of television.  I believe I can measure the course against those I have played and do not believe I would learn anything new from playing there.  But then again, I ain't that prone to learning no more.

n

I have worked at the Masters as a scorer(actually on a fixed standard) and have been since app 1990.
One of the perks is getting to play every year as the course closes around Memorial day.
The greens are not at tornasment speed but damn fast.
As a ~6 handicap, I am happy to break 80.  We play form the member tees at about 6200 yds.
The toughest things are knowing where to miss/leave a shot.  there is literally a few feet of area you can hit a shot and get close to the hole

[Mark McKeever]

I walked Augusta Thursday through Sunday in 2007.  While I can comment on the golf course, I feel that I would still need to play it in order to rank and really have a solid opinion formed.

Mark

[Mike Hendren]

Harwell Palmer?  Easily the best name since Norbert Painter.

Welcome.

Bogey

[Harwell Palmer]

Harwell Palmer?  Easily the best name since Norbert Painter.

Welcome.

Bogey

UUHHH thanks i guess...

[Tim Gavrich]

I would have to think the best way to learn the most about the golf course the quickest is by caddying there. A former ANGC caddy whom I've talked to compared learning the breaks on those greens to a college course (and I don't think he meant "Underwater Basket-Weaving").

[George Pazin]

I've always thought 9 & 17 and the long par 3 on the front (blanking on the number) looked the toughest for me. 12 looks like a little hit and hope, but I'm usually lucky with distance control, particularly with shorter irons. I'd probably struggle with the tee chute on 18 as well.

I can't imagine going for 13 or 15, no matter where my drive ended up. I'd probably be goaded by playing partners into trying, but I rarely go for any green guarded by water from more than 180.

7 & 11 would kill me from the new tees.

Like John, I don't much care how a 22 plays Augusta. Well, I'd care how this 22 does, but others not so much.

[Ben Kodadek]

JK,

Knowing your own game, if you were playing well, what would you shoot from the tournament tees?

[cary lichtenstein]

7 trips to Augusta, 6 to watch and 1 to play.

6 Trips of varying length, from 1 day to all 4 days, I've walked the course both forward and backwards, seen it all.

1 trip to play, 2 rounds. How does it differ? First, without the crowds lining ever fairway, Augusta doesn't look like itself. It looks more like any other golf course, trees, grass, bunkers, water and greens. The members tees are short enough to allow you to play your regular game, so it's all about the greens and putting.

I played hurt both days and shot 81/82 with no 3 putt greens but 2-4 ptters, the 4th and 17th greens. I was both thrilled and disappointed. Thrilled I had finally played it, slept, ate, drunk, etc in the clubhouse...did it all. Disappointed that the only surprise was the 5th green which is a huge 2 level green. Disappointed that it was just another golf course. Dissappointed that if I were to play one more round in my life (I don't play anymore), it wouldn't be Augusta.

Where would it be? My all time favorite course is Pebble Beach and that's where it would be.

[Mike_Young]

TD,
Around 1984 I was working the tournament and our job was to rake bunkers.  At the time we had a pair of hand scissors for clippings loose blades of grass around the edges, a rake broom and a regular rake.  If you remember the right bunker on 16 was much shallower at the time.  Anyway my job was to rake the edges with the rake broom and try to remove the small pine cones.  I raked them up to the edge and it created a small ramp which I forgot to remove.  Tom Weiskopf decided to put a ball form the bunker and it behaved as you say above.  It went across the green and into the water.  The supt and those of us on the crew were "reprimanded" quickly.  I think the bunker has been deepened now.  

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

Knowing your own game, if you were playing well, what would you shoot from the tournament tees?

If I played perfect I may get lucky and shoot 85.  I would be very proud.  I think a bookie who knows my game very well would set the over/under at 93.

[jeffwarne]

I have not played it but have walked it a number of times. I have also played a number of very hilly courses so I have a feel for the kind of game you need to hit from downslopes, sideslopes, etc. Augusta's are severe. Anyone who has been there knows tv just can not show how severe the slopes are. The 13th fairway looks like the turn at Daytona, the 14th green looks like a bad potato chip, the 1st green is nasty, etc. A bad golfer can not play that course. No way. Even from the white tees. Especially 1, 5, 9 and 10. I think you can learn just how severe you can make a golf course as far as the types of lies you need to play from into greens that really demand some type of positioning rather than just slapping it up there somewhere to try to get up and down. It makes all other hilly courses seem fairly easy. How would people react if it was built today and we looked at it for the first time? Some amount would call it too sloped, too difficult, unfair, etc. It is a great test for the best players in the world. I think most first time guests could have their handicap doubled and still not break 70.    

I disagree.
In fact i would argue that a "bad golfer" has waaaay more chance at ANGC than any other major venue. Little to no rough,clean woods, water in front on 3-4 holes,all of which can be approached with a short iron or wedge from the middle tees.
Now a poor putter may struggle,much as a poor driver would struggle at Shinnecock set up for an Open,but he can at least find his ball and can certainly play the course.
The beauty of Augusta is that it can in fact be played by the biggest of hacks,although at some point they'd need to hit a decent shot on 12 or 15,but that would be true of many links holes and most "great" courses.
My father used to play golf 3-4 times a year and never broke 100 in his life, yet had the uncanny ability to shoot 104-108 every time he played, and he counted them all-mainly because he played at next door Augusta CC ,another old school course where you can top,shank or fat the ball and usually get away with it..

The one time I played with him at ANGC? 106

Can a "bad golfer" play decently anywhere that a major is held? especially under the amped up major setup conditions?

I'd also argue that most golfers could double their handicap and still not break 70 at virtually any golf course if you counted them all and made them hole every putt(just look at qualifiying scores for any club championship), and they'd have no shot at a major venue the week of the major, which is when I assume you walked Augusta.

[Mark Steffey]

i played amen corner at tour 18 in houston....

i agree the speeds would wreak havoc upon people not used to it.  i played harbour town this past may a week after the heritage.  i had birdie putts on the first three holes and went double-double-double.

[Bill Gayne]

I've walked the course many times.

Question 1, yes.

Question 2, I would probably feel inadequate and disappointed in my own game because the only measuring stick I have is seeing pros play the course.

[William_G]

Shot selection with the wind and slopes of the greens and fairways would definitely be something one should experience

William,

Which shot are you most curious about from a purely academic stand point?  What shot do you think may reveal an architectural flaw that could lower your opinion of the course?

Personally I'm just not that sure about the second shot on number 2.

John,

I'm not sure, but the tee shot on 12 and the 2nd shot on 11 would be extremely interesting to play a few times. In looking for a flaw, I'd agree, that the lay-up on 2 is fairly pedestrian, but if you were going for the green it is not.

Guess I'd would have make sure the second cut overall has not become a weakness to the architecture by playing it with slopes/wind etc...

Thanks

[Sam Morrow]

i played amen corner at tour 18 in houston....

i agree the speeds would wreak havoc upon people not used to it.  i played harbour town this past may a week after the heritage.  i had birdie putts on the first three holes and went double-double-double.

Well hell, why'd you waste your time at Harbour Town? You got to play it at Tour 18 too!

[Mark Steffey]

i played amen corner at tour 18 in houston....

i agree the speeds would wreak havoc upon people not used to it.  i played harbour town this past may a week after the heritage.  i had birdie putts on the first three holes and went double-double-double.

Well hell, why'd you waste your time at Harbour Town? You got to play it at Tour 18 too!

just #18

[John_Cullum]

I would bet that 90% of golfers with a 5 handicap or over would not be able to put a ball on the green from inside 120 yds on 15

[jeffwarne]

I would bet that 90% of golfers with a 5 handicap or over would not be able to put a ball on the green from inside 120 yds on 15

correct
but 1/2 would skull it and be 3/4 of them would be ok

[George Pazin]

I would bet that 90% of golfers with a 5 handicap or over would not be able to put a ball on the green from inside 120 yds on 15

Why not bail out right and chip across?

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