[John Kavanaugh]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

Please note that I was lucky enough to attend one practice round in 1997 and religiously have followed the television coverage since the invention of television.  I believe I can measure the course against those I have played and do not believe I would learn anything new from playing there.  But then again, I ain't that prone to learning no more.

[John Kavanaugh]

I just learned that the first Masters was televised in 1956.  I didn't begin golfing until 1968 so I missed a few years.

[Matt MacIver]

Having walked AGNC 3x, watched it countless times and shot a 58 on it (Tiger Woods Wii, easiest setting!) I feel way more qualified to comment on it relative to any course I've actually played only a few, to wit: the Bandons, #2, BPB and several quality Scottish courses.

I'm sure I could learn something, but it's hard to say what...the easy answer is I'd probably appreciate the greens and complexes more because I haven't been that close to them.  

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I feel that if you walk a course and you are really paying close attention, you can learn more about it than you will from following around your own ball in a single round.  But, ideally, you would do BOTH, so you had a feel for the shots but not just the shots you happened to face.

I don't know that it's so easy to judge a course if you just see it from outside the ropes in a tournament setting, though.  I've had more trouble getting a feel for the course if I can't stand on the spot from which the player is going to hit his approach shots, and also if I can't walk on the greens and get a good feel for them.  I suppose if you watch a bunch of players putt each green, you can get a sense, but that's not as quick as doing it yourself.

It's funny, too, that most raters who play courses either (a) play alone, or (b) play with other raters.  I can't imagine a restaurant critic taking either approach.  A restaurant critic would want to dine with several other people to see a wider selection of entrees, but he wouldn't want to dine with a bunch of other critics who were expressing their own biases.

[Morgan Clawson]

I have been to a few tournaments.

I tell people that haven't been that:

* The whole experience is cooler than you think it will be
* It's much hillier than you think it will be
* It's more beautiful than you think it will be

Being there, you get a great feeling for the strategy of the holes, how you might play them, etc.  

But, John I believe:

*  The greens will be faster, more difficult, and more complex than you think they will be!

[John Kavanaugh]

*  The greens will be faster, more difficult, and more complex than you think they will be!

Morgan,

If I ever to get to play Augusta I doubt the greens will be at tournament speed.  When I first saw the first green at ANGC I wondered how I could ever finish the hole.  The chipping at tournament speed looks impossible.  If anything I would find the greens to be more manageable than I imagine. 

[Jason Topp]

It's funny, too, that most raters who play courses either (a) play alone, or (b) play with other raters.  I can't imagine a restaurant critic taking either approach.  A restaurant critic would want to dine with several other people to see a wider selection of entrees, but he wouldn't want to dine with a bunch of other critics who were expressing their own biases.

This states more precisely a vaguely formed notion that I have had for some time.  The best experience I have had in learning about golf courses involved 4 days I spent alone at Bandon Dunes because a trial in Salem ended early.  The resort paired me up with whoever was available so I played with a wide range of customers from high handicappers frustrated with their game to a former US Open competitor.  Certain bunkers or other challenges at the resort had a huge impact on certain individual's rounds that, if I were playing alone I would not have noticed playing alone. 

[Anthony Butler]

I have been to a few tournaments.

I tell people that haven't been that:

* The whole experience is cooler than you think it will be
* It's much hillier than you think it will be
* It's more beautiful than you think it will be

Being there, you get a great feeling for the strategy of the holes, how you might play them, etc.  

But, John I believe:

*  The greens will be faster, more difficult, and more complex than you think they will be!

Hilly... agreed... some of the elder 'patrons' looked liked they were about to stroke out walking up the hill to the 18th green.

When the sun shines at Augusta it is almost eye-achingly green. Unlike, most links courses where the sky and sea seem to be right on top of the course, in many places Augusta National seems to be all green until you're 40ft off the ground. It's like you're trapped in a golf diorama of sorts.

When you think of the strip-mall ugliness of the surrounding town, it's hard to believe something like it actually exists in that location.

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing, when I visited Augusta I found the conditioning much more imperfect than I had imagined.  Much of the overconditioning legend is urban in truth.

[JSlonis]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

I've walked the course 5 times on 3 separate visits to the Master's. My first trip was to see tournament rounds from Fri-Sun, next was a Wed practice rd and finally a Friday rd a few yrs ago. I think from that, I could measure it to an extent but not fully without actually playing the course.

I'm sure I'd learn a lot more about the greensites as they relate to the short game and putting.  From walking, I think you can get a good feel for the visuals off the tee and for certain approach shots but you can't get a feel for all that you face on the greens without having putted them yourself.

[John Kavanaugh]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

I've walked the course 5 times on 3 separate visits to the Master's. My first trip was to see tournament rounds from Fri-Sun, next was a Wed practice rd and finally a Friday rd a few yrs ago. I think from that, I could measure it to an extent but not fully without actually playing the course.

I'm sure I'd learn a lot more about the greensites as they relate to the short game and putting.  From walking, I think you can get a good feel for the visuals off the tee and for certain approach shots but you can't get a feel for all that you face on the greens without having putted them yourself.

J,

Would or could you learn enough to change your opinion about the course in one play?

[JMEvensky]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

I've walked the course 5 times on 3 separate visits to the Master's. My first trip was to see tournament rounds from Fri-Sun, next was a Wed practice rd and finally a Friday rd a few yrs ago. I think from that, I could measure it to an extent but not fully without actually playing the course.

I'm sure I'd learn a lot more about the greensites as they relate to the short game and putting.  From walking, I think you can get a good feel for the visuals off the tee and for certain approach shots but you can't get a feel for all that you face on the greens without having putted them yourself.

Jamie,I'm sure you've talked to guys who've played in the Masters.Did they say any of the impressions you got from just walking the course were wrong?

[John Kavanaugh]

I have watched the Masters tournament with an individual who has played in the tournament.  He could have sold tickets.  There is no way I would let one play of the course dilute the feeling it gives me every April.

[Anthony Gray]

  Walk it. Play it. Caddy it. Mow it. Only then will you know it.

  Anthony

 

[Ross Tuddenham]

John if you have only watched the worlds best players play the course do you not think you may have missed out on seeing shots played from areas of the course these guys just don’t visit?  Even playing from the same spots the average handicap golfer will not play remotely the same shot as a pro.

So just wondering if you think you need to see a wider range of abilities play a course before making a judgement on it?

If you play a course once in a fourball, with some regular hackers, that could be 4 different ways to play the course. Watching even a varied group of pro’s like DJ, Donald, Bubba and Westwood would produce very little veriety in how to play the holes and how differing abilities can cope with the course.

[Chris Roselle]

I've walked the course 5 times on 3 separate visits to the Master's. My first trip was to see tournament rounds from Fri-Sun, next was a Wed practice rd and finally a Friday rd a few yrs ago. I think from that, I could measure it to an extent but not fully without actually playing the course.

I'm sure I'd learn a lot more about the greensites as they relate to the short game and putting.  From walking, I think you can get a good feel for the visuals off the tee and for certain approach shots but you can't get a feel for all that you face on the greens without having putted them yourself.


[/quote]
Couldn't agree with you more Jamie.  I went all four years I was in college (96-99/one of my college teammates grew up a member at Augusta CC so easy in) and a few years when I lived in Atlanta and I can pretty well map out my entire round from walking the course from tee to green.  But once I reach the green I can only go by what I have seen and heard on TV for years about putts breaking towards Ray's Creek and so on and so forth.  Until you have putted on them or hit chips and pitches around them (which I have done on the 12th green but that another story for another time when no one from ANGC is listening) I don't think just looking at them or watching people play them help all that much.  It helps sum but not a whole lot IMO.

[John Kavanaugh]

John if you have only watched the worlds best players play the course do you not think you may have missed out on seeing shots played from areas of the course these guys just don’t visit?  Even playing from the same spots the average handicap golfer will not play remotely the same shot as a pro.

So just wondering if you think you need to see a wider range of abilities play a course before making a judgement on it?

If you play a course once in a fourball, with some regular hackers, that could be 4 different ways to play the course. Watching even a varied group of pro’s like DJ, Donald, Bubba and Westwood would produce very little veriety in how to play the holes and how differing abilities can cope with the course.

Ross,

Please name a scenario of a shot on any hole at Augusta that I would not have seen by watching the Masters for the last 43 years.  I really don't care if it is impossible for a 22 handicap to hold the 12th green.

[JESII]

The shot I'm most curious about is the approach to #10 after I hit my weak heal cut out to the right side of the fairway at about 225 from the green? Is there any hope of hitting the green from there? If not, where do you hit it?

[Mike Hendren]

1.  Do you feel qualified to measure it against other courses you have played?  and..

2.  What more could you learn from playing the course?

My answers:

1.  Yes.  Its brilliance is obvious.
2.  That I can't get the ball to quit rolling when I need/want it to.  

[Chris Roselle]

The shot I'm most curious about is the approach to #10 after I hit my weak heal cut out to the right side of the fairway at about 225 from the green? Is there any hope of hitting the green from there? If not, where do you hit it?

Jim, there is hope of hitting the green but it requires a lot of skill no doubt.  I guess the best place to leave it would be short and sligthly left so that all the pitches and chips you face will be uphill with as little movement as possible considering how much slope there is on the green to begin with.

[John Kavanaugh]

The shot I'm most curious about is the approach to #10 after I hit my weak heal cut out to the right side of the fairway at about 225 from the green? Is there any hope of hitting the green from there? If not, where do you hit it?

Sure beats hitting your drive off of Butler Cabin.  I would guess from your drive you would hit a pull to the left of the green and be left with the impossible chip we have seen a thousand times.  The one shot I have not seen is what follows after cold topping your second into the bunker.

[Ross Tuddenham]

John

For starters does anyone on here know how the 13th plays for those of 5 handicap and up?  I dont reckon they can go for it in two very often even with the tee's moved up as you would have to master a great draw or run out of fairway.

If you cant answer this then how could you compare it to another great par 5 like the TOC's 14th where we know how the average player plays it?

[John Kavanaugh]

John

For starters does anyone on here know how the 13th plays for those of 5 handicap and up?  I dont reckon they can go for it in two very often even with the tee's moved up as you would have to master a great draw or run out of fairway.

If you cant answer this then how could you compare it to another great par 5 like the TOC's 14th where we know how the average player plays it?

Ross,

As I love to tell people any chance I get, I drove the 10th green at Riviera.  It was a once in a lifetime shot handed to me by Angels from God.  I know many, many golfers whose handicaps that are over 5 who have the capability to hit two shots in a row that would find the 13th green.  To me, questions of possibilities in relation to distance based on handicap are moot.

I will say that the slope of the 13th fairway at Augusta is more severe than what one would think.  I see no problem with requiring a golfer to hit a soft fade off of a draw lie.  I believe most higher handicapped golfers should play long left when going for the green.  I would love the hole no less for that.

Earlier someone mentioned the 10th where we recently saw the current world #1 hit his drive adjacent to Butler Cabin.  You now mention the 13th where we saw Tiger putt his ball into the creek.  I don't see where the ability of any one individual on one attempt has anything to do with the value of a hole. (except the 10th at Riviera)

[William_G]

I've walked it for 5 days over two Masters and would definitely learn more by playing it.

Shot selection with the wind and slopes of the greens and fairways would definitely be something one should experience

Of course, I also feel fairly adept at understanding the course having walked it.

John, I think you, I and another couple of guys should tee it up there!  

[John Kavanaugh]

Shot selection with the wind and slopes of the greens and fairways would definitely be something one should experience

William,

Which shot are you most curious about from a purely academic stand point?  What shot do you think may reveal an architectural flaw that could lower your opinion of the course?

Personally I'm just not that sure about the second shot on number 2.

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