[Jeffrey Stein]

Anybody know where this is? 

What do you think of the flat bottom?  Is a better hazard if it is bowled out like a traditional trap or pit?

If you have played this course, this green complex probably stood out to you too....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don't know the hole, but the flat bottom looks fine to me, easy to mow, and the medium length rough is a decent penalty. 

If it was bowled it would become more time consuming to mow and it would probably end up as deep rough. 

[Pete_Pittock]

That is , I believe, the 11th at Sandpines, Florence, OR, about a 150-175 yard par 3 playing to the north. It used to be deeper, and sand filled. Used to be a real *itch with the winds up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeffrey,

Robert Von Hagge employed that feature on two greenside bunkers at Boca Rio, one shallow, one deep.

Both were mowed at fairway height and were difficult bunkers for most.

A subsequent Green Chairman allowed the grass to grow to rough height making extrication far easier

[Ian Andrew]

They tend to have thin turf because they are slow to drain and often compacted by equipment. Throw in the issue with divots in an area like this and it becomes a feature that I avoid.

Take away "a" side and I would love the feature more because the area would drain and the distrubution of wear would increase dramatically.

Sorry for being so practical, but that's part of the job too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

Von Hagge had the back of these bunkers open

[Anthony Gray]

  I would like to see more of these. Why don't we?

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

Probably because they present a very difficult challenge for most golfers and can be a maintenance dilemma as well.

[Keith Cutten]

Anthony,

Probably because they present a very difficult challenge for most golfers and can be a maintenance dilemma as well.

Patrick, 

Do you not feel that the collar of rough is a greater challenge to the average golfer than the use of contouring?  I feel grass bottom bunkers should be used more often and are by great architects.  However, preventing the longer handicapped player from using a putter from this position is too penal and reduces the variety of shots.

Keith

[Wade Whitehead]

I love it.

WW

[Anders Rytter]

Von Hagge used a feature quite like this on Crandon Park (Miami). On hole 8 and 10 (i think). The one a 8th is build with Wood on the side leading up to the green, eliminating the low bouncibg ball. Unfortunately i didn't take a picture.

[Anders Rytter]

Courtesy of Mark Saltzman here is a picture of the grass bunker on 8th @Crandon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

Probably because they present a very difficult challenge for most golfers and can be a maintenance dilemma as well.

Patrick, 

Do you not feel that the collar of rough is a greater challenge to the average golfer than the use of contouring?  I feel grass bottom bunkers should be used more often and are by great architects.  However, preventing the longer handicapped player from using a putter from this position is too penal and reduces the variety of shots.

Keith, these were deep to the degree that it was impossible to putt out of them

Keith

[Jon Wiggett]

This is a feature that is seen on many older courses here in the UK. I think it is a much under used by modern architects. Easy to build and can be low maintenance (mine are stimmed once a month) they are cheaper and as effective as sand bunkers.

Jon

[Ben Stephens]

This is a feature that is seen on many older courses here in the UK. I think it is a much under used by modern architects. Easy to build and can be low maintenance (mine are stimmed once a month) they are cheaper and as effective as sand bunkers.

Jon

Adding to Jon's comments - I recently played Luffenham and they have a lot of grass bottomed bunkers - old bunkers that have been filled in as well as some that were designated grass bunkers originally - I have found some old photos of grass bunkers there before WW2.

Cheers
Ben

[Jeff_Mingay]

First thing I noticed is how much the large, symmetrical mounds behind the green contrast with this ditch feature - which actually looks kinda cool. There's a similar feature left/short of a green (can't remember the hole at the moment) at Swinley Forest that looks great, even if not practical in some ways.  

[Jeffrey Stein]

Mr. Pittock is the big winner (I figured an Oregonian would get the picture). 

Jeff:  I happen to be a fan of the total look here as well.  I will also say that Sand Pines is notorious for its artificial mounding throughout the course.  In this particular instance, this bunker is completely out of character with the others, I believe it is the only bunker with a grass bottom.  I would have liked to see more of them dotted throughout.

Regarding the planking to the left of 8 at Crandon, this hole has recently been renovated, I wonder when this picture was taken, the last time I saw the course, maybe two years ago, the green had been vaulted and sand added around the sides...

Thanks for the insights regarding maintainance issues as well, its got to be a primary thought when building any feature (or should be)!

[Joe Stansell]

Here's another version of the same concept. Bayside Hole #7. Better executed?

[Grant Saunders]

Hey Jeff, hope all is good. Where are you based at the moment?

I like the concept of the grass bottomed bunker and feel it is an underused option. Any variation in hazards and different types of challenge for the golfer can only be a good thing.

Here is a photo from James Boon's thread on Castle Stuart (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42035.0.html) from a couple of years ago.

It shows a pot type grass bunker in front of the 18th green. I imagine this would in fact play easier if it were a sand bunker.



Also, the 3rd green features an interesting use of revetting on the left to create some uncertainty in recovery play



Please check out Jeff's blog linked on his posts. It is great reading and highlights his experiences of the last few years and shows great commitment in his pursuing his goals to learn about golf course architecture and construction.

[Sven Nilsen]

Grant:

I think you're right about those "bunkers" playing easier if they had sand.  I imagine more balls find the a resting place closer to the face than would happen if there was some sand there to slow the roll.  Coming out backwards or sideways is probably the only option in some cases.

That being said, if the golfer is aware of the possible penalty, I really like the idea of the choice to take on the challenge and execute well or find an alternative route.

[Anders Rytter]

Mr. Pittock is the big winner (I figured an Oregonian would get the picture). 

Jeff:  I happen to be a fan of the total look here as well.  I will also say that Sand Pines is notorious for its artificial mounding throughout the course.  In this particular instance, this bunker is completely out of character with the others, I believe it is the only bunker with a grass bottom.  I would have liked to see more of them dotted throughout.

Regarding the planking to the left of 8 at Crandon, this hole has recently been renovated, I wonder when this picture was taken, the last time I saw the course, maybe two years ago, the green had been vaulted and sand added around the sides...

Thanks for the insights regarding maintainance issues as well, its got to be a primary thought when building any feature (or should be)!

My bad, don't know who did the "bunker" on 8th at Crandon. I was there on wednesday and it was like onthe picture. Might be new, but thats what it plays like now.

[Mike McGuire]

Looks better and plays better with sand.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Thanks Grant!  Post some pictures of what your doing at Ashburton sometime!  Im in Uruguay for 2 more months (3 in total), I´ve got a great opportunity to build some bunkers..ill post pics as the work progresses.

 These other grass traps are pretty cool too, its all a bit quirky?? but is a nice visual surprise every once in a while.

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