[Mac Plumart]

The thread on Bandon Trails and the comments on #14 about people who love it and people who hate it, got me thinking.

Didn't Mackenzie say that a course (or hole) that everyone agrees is great, probably isn't.  And when he hears people bitching and moaning about a golf hole, he knows he's nailed it.  Of course, I paraphrased him there.  But I think I got the gist of it.

What are some examples of controversial holes?

14 at Bandon Trails
17 at TPC Sawgrass
2 at Sebonack
Others?

Who thinks they are great?
Who thinks they suck?

[Tim Gavrich]

One hole near here whose controversy I will never understand is the 9th at Caledonia.  I think it's a neat pitch par 3.

[Mac Plumart]

Any photos, Tim?

[Mark Saltzman]

Fair to say that most controversial holes are controversial because of the severity of the green/surrounds?

[Mark Saltzman]

Probably not controversial in the grand scheme of golf, but controversial among the members...

the 9th green at Mirasol (Sunrise) - T. Fazio

One of the longest par-4s on the course.  Wind plays either straight down or straight into.  Downwind, almost impossible, even with a short iron to land the ball on the green and have it stay there.  Into the wind, almost impossible to hit this shallow green with a long club.

Upslope short of the green (and remember, this is Florida) means anything that lands short will not run on to the green.  Plus, a knob in the fairway short of the centre of the green serves to kick well-struck shots in any direction.




The green lays at a diagonal to the fairway, making both distance and line of vital importance.  Long and short are both bad misses here.  The green itself is a diagonal version of the Biarritz.  Easy stuff!






Anything that misses long will find a very deep collection area.  For all but the low-cappers, may as well just pick up from there.  PING-PONG factor is high on this hole!

[Mike Boehm]

#9 at kingsley is the first to come to mind for me.  #2 at Kingsley to a lesser extent.  I enjoy both of these holes.  #9 at Caledonia I've just always felt was a let-down, paritcularly for a round that starts on #10 (which with Myrtle Beach double-teeing, half of the rounds do.  No an offensive hole, but just feel shoehorned in to me.

[Mark Saltzman]

#9 at kingsley is the first to come to mind for me.  #2 at Kingsley to a lesser extent.  

Mike, agree with both of these choices (and I like 'em both too).  Once again, possibility of ping-pong is a big source of the debate.  It's not that hitting the green is so difficult (or dare I say it, unfair), it's that it is almost impossible to recover if you miss (especially from right of Kingsley 9).

Here's a look at Kingsley's 9th from the south(?) white tees, which give a good overview of the entire green site.  Right is dead.

[Bill Seitz]

#9 at kingsley is the first to come to mind for me.  #2 at Kingsley to a lesser extent.

Call me a homer, but I was going to say 2, 9, and 13 at Kingsley. I love all three, with #2 being one of my favorite holes on any course. But controversial, to me, means that the opinions are on the extremes. I don't know anyone who thinks #s 2 and 9 are just OK. They both seem like love 'em or hate 'em holes to me. And as Mark noted, the primary defense for both are the green surrounds.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mac mentioned Sebonack #2.  I thought it was exceptional, though it I see how some could see it as extreme.  I would say the more controversial holes at Sebonack are 13 and 14, entirely because of the greens.

Some images/thoughts on Sebonack #2:

For all of the praise this hole will receive for the interesting tee shot and the 'visual feast,' I think this hole is all about the green.  Another very natural-looking greensite tucked in amongst the dunes and flows perfectly with the existing(?) ground contours. D/N scare the shit out of you with the huge, imposing bunkers/mounding on the right and the large false-front.  They are just begging you to hit it long-left.  Lots of fairway there, that must be a good spot to miss.  WRONG! From 10 yards left of the green it is difficult to even find the green with your next shot.  The slope of the green from back-left to front-right is at a minimum severe and is bordering on unplayable.  Playing with one of the founding members, I was told that aiming for the little collection area short of the green is the best way to play the hole.  Great players and idiots can try to get it all the way to the pin, the rest of should play to the front and try for 4 from there.

2 Green:




The collection area short of the green (a good aiming point):




Green from 3rd tee (note severe back-left to front-right slope):




Looking back down 2/18:

[Mark Saltzman]

How about Engh's template 'two-tiered' green? I'm not really a fan, but surely some are:

At Pradera:




And again at Sanctuary:

[Mark Saltzman]

There is some controversy about this one.  I loved the hole -- the narrowest I have ever seen -- the only hole on the course that is tree-lined, as much of the course has lots of width.  Like the architect (Steel) just wanted to screw with the golfer's mind.  Still, some say it is just stupid, too narrow, and out-of-character:

[Mark Saltzman]

These two holes are probably controversial, again because of the severity of the greens.  Miss right on the first hole pictured, and it is almost impossible to find the green on the recovery.  Miss long on the second hole pictured, and again, very difficult just to get the next shot on the green.

I'm not going to name the course, because I hope to be invited back some day 

Hole 7 at course X:








Hole 11 at course X:

[Jim Nugent]

14 at Pebble in the 2010 Open was a bear for the pro's.  So was 17.  These were partly (mostly?) due to maintenance issues, which I think also applies to those holes in Mark's course X. 

[Tom_Doak]

The thread on Bandon Trails and the comments on #14 about people who love it and people who hate it, got me thinking.

Didn't Mackenzie say that a course (or hole) that everyone agrees is great, probably isn't.  And when he hears people bitching and moaning about a golf hole, he knows he's nailed it.  Of course, I paraphrased him there.  But I think I got the gist of it.

What are some examples of controversial holes?

14 at Bandon Trails
17 at TPC Sawgrass
2 at Sebonack
Others?

Who thinks they are great?
Who thinks they suck?

The architect thinks they are great.  Some golfers think they are great.

Other golfers think they suck.  And, if very many golfers think they suck, then the client thinks they suck.  And the golf pro thinks they suck, because he always has to listen to people's complaints about them.  And sometimes, the superintendent thinks they suck, too, because they usually aren't the easiest holes to maintain.

When we were building High Pointe, the construction superintendent [Tom Mead] and I used to think that if we built a course that 50% of people hated, and 50% of people loved, we would have done something truly great.  We might have succeeded ... except for the part where the course closed!  In hindsight, I've never met a client who would have been happy with those percentages.  Nearly all owners would prefer a course to be uncontroversial, and even the ones who are willing to risk it are cautious about it, in my experience.

[Michael Whitaker]

"In hindsight, I've never met a client who would have been happy with those percentages.  Nearly all owners would prefer a course to be uncontroversial, and even the ones who are willing to risk it are cautious about it, in my experience."

Which is exactly why Tom Fazio has been so successful.

[Ronald Montesano]

controversy has a statute of limitations, given that human beings eventually figure "it" out and, to save face, deny that there was ever anything that uncommon about it.

fortunately for all but the one whose very existence was forged in notoriety, a Kate Upton comes along and make you forget a Bar Refaeli; even when she returns, she's not quite what you remembered her to be.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

#9 at kingsley is the first to come to mind for me.  #2 at Kingsley to a lesser extent.

Call me a homer, but I was going to say 2, 9, and 13 at Kingsley. I love all three, with #2 being one of my favorite holes on any course. But controversial, to me, means that the opinions are on the extremes. I don't know anyone who thinks #s 2 and 9 are just OK. They both seem like love 'em or hate 'em holes to me. And as Mark noted, the primary defense for both are the green surrounds.

I agree #2 and #9 are controversial - I will also admit I love them and loathe at times.  Rarely do I escape the front nine at Kingsley without a train wreck at one or the other...

As for #13, I don't really think this whole is controversial - I just think it is a lot of fun.  The choices are pretty straightforward off the tee - layup to a full wedge into the green or blast something up close to the green with your tee ball as we what you have left.  I have made a 2 here once and I don't think I have ever carded anything higher here than what I know I have carded on #2 or #9!

If I had to pick one hole on the back that was controversial - I would nominate #15.  It is a difficult tee shot to get into position for the best angle into the green.  And speaking of the green, I don't think I have every seen a more difficult green to hit/hold from 165-200 yards in my life...I usually try to play it as a par 5 and have my second shot up near the green on the left.  I am not sure I have ever had par here and would guess I have more 6's than 5's...

[Sean_A]

I think all courses should have one or two controversial holes.  Much of the time the controversy is really about challenging accepted notions about design.  To me, if I am paying for the insight and creativity of an archie this is part and parcel of what I expect from him.  I would think the hard part for an archie looking to push the boundaries is trying to make the controversial hole fit the project somehow so folks can't drag out the tired argument of the hole not being in keeping with the course.  This is one reason why building courses sympathetically with the land is a positive.  I am surprised not to see controversy being spread over consecutive holes - especially for an awkward or tight area of a property. 

Of course, other than building OTT difficult holes or focusing on par 3 set pieces, the easiest and perhaps best way to challenge convention is to fool about with the concept of par.  I love it when holes bust open the stupidity of a number written on a card over-influencing golfer's perception of good and bad design.  Granted, this is an easier task pulled off in windy areas, but even then some holes really stand out.  One of the best examples I know of is St Enodoc's 10th.   

Ciao 

[Michael Whitaker]

Sometimes controversial holes are the result of accidents or unforeseen circumstances. For example:  the 13th hole at Pawleys Plantation. It is an extremely controversial hole, but the controversy was not planned... see this thread for an explanation: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,15378.50.html

[Mike Benham]

How about the 16th at Pasatiempo?  It has all the elements that many of the previously mentioned holes have, yet there is not an overwhelming cry of controversy.

[Tim Martin]

18 at Yale is certainly a controversial hole. Mac/Raynor needed a way to get you to the house and like other holes on this golf course were not afraid to push the envelope. It is an adventure that has the ability to ruin the day for those seeking to post a score or send you to Widdy`s Grill with a smile from ear to ear. I can`t think of a more rugged hole anywhere and although there are haters I firmly fall in the "lovefest" camp.

[Mike Hogan]

Here is a shot of Kinglsey #9, not sure what tees?


Here is Kinglsey #2.


Bunkers Behind.



I found the bunkers somewhat controversial.
The native vegetation was really thick. If you didn't get into the sand you couldn't hit it and had to take an unplayable.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Probably not controversial in the grand scheme of golf, but controversial among the members...

the 9th green at Mirasol (Sunrise) - T. Fazio

One of the longest par-4s on the course.  Wind plays either straight down or straight into.  Downwind, almost impossible, even with a short iron to land the ball on the green and have it stay there.  Into the wind, almost impossible to hit this shallow green with a long club.

Upslope short of the green (and remember, this is Florida) means anything that lands short will not run on to the green.  Plus, a knob in the fairway short of the centre of the green serves to kick well-struck shots in any direction.




The green lays at a diagonal to the fairway, making both distance and line of vital importance.  Long and short are both bad misses here.  The green itself is a diagonal version of the Biarritz.  Easy stuff!






Anything that misses long will find a very deep collection area.  For all but the low-cappers, may as well just pick up from there.  PING-PONG factor is high on this hole!

Plus, the surrounds and collection areas are all short cut, tifeagle,making it easy to miss the green and fall off.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Here is a shot of Kinglsey #9, not sure what tees?


Here is Kinglsey #2.


Bunkers Behind.



I found the bunkers somewhat controversial.
The native vegetation was really thick. If you didn't get into the sand you couldn't hit it and had to take an unplayable.

Mike, that is the west tee at #9.  It certainly requires a fairly precise distance on the tee short - thankfully it is usually just a short iron or wedge.  I think the miss here is actually short and in the front, right bunker isn't horrible.  A very interesting pin from this tee is front left - if you can land your tee shot left of the pin and just up the bank a bit - you can have a very short birdie putt or even an ace.  I have seen more tee balls here a foot or less from the pin than any other course I have ever played.  The issue is that if you carry your tee shot a little too far up the bank, the ball gathers too much speed and will most likely run off the green into the bunkers or down the slope. 

As for the bunkers, I agree - the vegetation around them (along with the uneven ground) makes recoveries very difficult or impossible.  I find myself often saying - "I can't even get my club on the ball!" I would generally prefer to be in the bunker on most occasions.

With 6" new inches of snow on the ground here in Michigan - those photos make me even more anxious for spring to come and a trip up to the Club!  Luckily, I am headed out to Bandon Dunes in two weeks for four days of non-stop golf - I have been out three times previously, but this will be my first trip with Old MacDonald officially open...very excited...I have to go pack!

[Kalen Braley]

Mac,

Going back to your original statement.  If he really meant what he said, then that would mean his crown jewel, CPC 100% breaks that rule.

I suspect he used it so he always had an out so to speak.  For example:

Scenario 1: Course opens and is universally praised and loved.  Then his design was a winner because of all the external validation and deep down he knows he did well.

Scenario 2:  Course opens and is controversial and openly questioned for several holes. Then in his mind, this must be the mark of a good design because the average joes don't "get it".

Regardless of the outcome, he'll spin it as a win....but in reality I'm guessing that statement was more bravado than an actual reflection of what he really thought.  Despite his rough and rugged external persona that seems to be the popular view, I'm guessing he had a soft under belly just like everyone else in his private moments.

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