[Sean_A]

I think this is the product you mean Ally. I haven't seen it in use myself, but their testimonials are impressive.

http://www.envirosports.co.uk/

Other than the atrocious spelling, this quote is curious:

Installations at top class courses including the likes of St Andrews Links, Turneberry, Goswick (Open championship Qualifying Course), Seaton Carew (Holders of Brabzon Trophy), Sandmoor and Northamptonshire County proves that EnviroBunker offers many benefits:

Turneberry (presumably THE Turnberry) has fake sod walls?  Which St Andrews links course?  

I will say this, if Northamptonshire Co has fake faces they look VERY good.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Some of these courses would try it out on one or two bunkers first Sean.

Turnberry would probably try the Kintyre course before the main one I suspect.

[Kyle Harris]

“The question of bunkers is a big one and the very best school for study we have found is along the seacoast among the dunes. Here one may study the different formations and obtain many ideas for bunkers. We have tried to make them natural and fit them into the landscape. The criticism had been made that we have made them too easy, that the banks are too sloping and that a man may often play a mid-iron shot out of the bunker where he should be forced to use a niblick. This opens a pretty big subject and we know that the tendency is to make bunkers more difficult. In the bunkers abroad on the seaside courses, the majority of them were formed by nature and the slopes are easy; the only exception being where on account of the shifting sand, they have been forced to put in railroad ties or similar substance to keep the same from blowing. This had made a perfectly straight wall but was not done with the intention of making it difficult to get out but merely to retain the bunker as it exists. If we make the banks of every bunker so steep that the very best player is forced to use a niblick to get out and the only hope he has when he gets in is to be able to get his ball on the fairway again, why should we not make a rule as we have at present with water hazards, when a man may, if he so desires, drop back with the loss of a stroke. I thoroughly believe that for the good of Golf, that we should not make our bunkers so difficult, that there is no choice left in playing out of them and that the best and worst must use a niblick.”

-Hugh Wilson, 1916

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

Interesting article yet even back then Pot Bunkers were well known and they can be difficult to exit subject to the final resting place of the ball.

My up bring related to golf, as I found over the years was fairly compressive, in that bunkers were sand traps, the key word being traps. To escape a trap the golfers should look for the best exit to maintain his game, which sometimes meant side or even a short chips slightly backwards, rather than take a risk on an attacking move when skill was perhaps lacking.  While an initial pain (if you land in one) the penal bunkers adds spice to a game.

Ditto to fairway bunkers, I am a great supporter of these simple but well place hazards, they make the golfer yet again think his progress to the pin, but they need to be penal enough to make the golfer question his approach, pushing him to take a risk or playing save. Unlike Wilson’s comments I was taught that the wayward shot may find the sand trap while the careful one may just achieve a better overall result.

Many years ago golfers became rather vocal and started to use their clout in requiring courses to be deemed easier and from memory one of the early casualties were the fairway bunkers opening up the golf for the aerial game.

So I believe that in past the demise of these bunkers relate to the golfers themselves rather than to design or maintenance issues. However I could be wrong as the question relates to the USA – although I believe, but can’t swear that the move was instigated in the States.

[Mark McKeever]

There was one on the fourth hole at Greate Bay this weekend.  Archie can probably give further comments!

Mark

[Jim Colton]

It looks like they're using quite a few revetted bunkers in the renovations at Mistwood in Romeoville, IL. Here is a link to some construction pics...

http://www.mistwoodgolf.net/courserenovationpics

The maintenance crew at Mistwood will be busy during the winter for years to come!

[PCCraig]

Has anyone ever seen sod wall bunkers attempted in clay soils?

I am under the impression that it wouldn't work at all, because clay would contaminate the bunker through the sod wall.  But I'm not sure of that; I've just never seen it.

Tom,

Conway Farms (Fazio) in Lake Forest, IL has one on their 8th hole I believe built into a hill below the green on a par-5. It doesn't work.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think this is the product you mean Ally. I haven't seen it in use myself, but their testimonials are impressive.

http://www.envirosports.co.uk/

Other than the atrocious spelling, this quote is curious:

Installations at top class courses including the likes of St Andrews Links, Turneberry, Goswick (Open championship Qualifying Course), Seaton Carew (Holders of Brabzon Trophy), Sandmoor and Northamptonshire County proves that EnviroBunker offers many benefits:

Turneberry (presumably THE Turnberry) has fake sod walls?  Which St Andrews links course?  

I will say this, if Northamptonshire Co has fake faces they look VERY good.


Ciao

Clicking through it noted that their installation at st Andrews was for a practice bunker on the Jubilee course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Revetted bunkers seem to be tied to maintenance practices on links courses, they were created to contain blowing sand and 'protect' the 'scrapes' from moving around or disappearing altogether. It seems like a wise move to create walls of stacked turf under those type of conditions. They may need occasional rebuilding, but I'd say that's less work and less expensive than the day to day maintenance of removing blown sand from the fairways and replacing sand that's been lost, especially when added to the regularly scheduled maintenance.

Those conditions aren't that prevalent here, or on many inland courses, and a bunker that isn't subject to links-like conditions can last a long time, so why do it if there isn't any need to spend the extra money required in creating, and recreating, the stacked walls?    

[Melvyn Morrow]

The following photo (courtesy of the Uni of St Andrews) shows the turf being sliced circa 1937. Now is this for the bunkers or another purpose? Answer to follow later.

[Niall C]

Sean

Those "dinosaur footprint" bunkers at Aberdovey do look good although I would have preferred them wider and less trench like myself. I can imagine Darwin would have referred to them as being "broken ground". Marvellous stuff.

Ian

When I initially read Tom's question I immediately thought about The Carrick where revetted bunkering is used throughout the course. When I was younger the inland courses on the other side of Glasgow I used to play as a boy that were clay based had an element of revetted faces on greenside bunkers but a more shallower face on the fairway bunkers. These days on these same courses a lot of the bunkers have been given grass faces down to sand level which personally is less appealing visually and also helps camouflages the hazard unnecessarily IMO.

Tom/Ally,

I was going to say that I doubted very much if any links other than perhaps Open rotas courses routinely rebuilt all their bunker faces every 5 years. Indeed the first time I remember reading about the 5 year bunker life was when TOC was first put on the rota every 5 years and the first Open they ahd there they redid all the bunkers. I don't think it was ever heard of before then but could easily be wrong.

Niall 

[Jim_Kennedy]

MM
They look too short to be bunker turves.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

You might be right, too early to say

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd think that they would fill up like a bathtub in a rain event, if they were built on clay soil.  Maintaining drainage would likely be an issue.

Bryan,

Are you stating that all below grade bunkers fill up like a bathtub in a rain event ?

How do you explain the abundant existance of below grade bunkers in clay soils ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anyone who has played Porthcawl will know that if you hit into a bunker you are hoping 1/ you can stand in the bunker, 2/ you have a swing and  3/ you can play in the direction of the hole.
Many times you don't get all three and they are to be avoided at all costs.
And if you do get all three you must resist the temptation to try for too much. The most innocent looking ones are sometimes the most dangerous.
My guess is that if anyone built bunkers like than in this age they would be accused of many things.

Mike,

Isn't that the real problem, that they serve their strategic/tactical purpose too well ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Revetted bunkers seem to be tied to maintenance practices on links courses, they were created to contain blowing sand and 'protect' the 'scrapes' from moving around or disappearing altogether. It seems like a wise move to create walls of stacked turf under those type of conditions. They may need occasional rebuilding, but I'd say that's less work and less expensive than the day to day maintenance of removing blown sand from the fairways and replacing sand that's been lost, especially when added to the regularly scheduled maintenance.

Those conditions aren't that prevalent here, or on many inland courses, and a bunker that isn't subject to links-like conditions can last a long time, so why do it if there isn't any need to spend the extra money required in creating, and recreating, the stacked walls?    

Jim,

Thanks for the info.

I was thinking more along the lines of their ferocious appearance and FUNCTION than I was their maintainance.

If the maintainance issue could be resolved, vis a vis other construction techniques, would those type of bunkers be declared 'bunker non grata" in the U.S. based on their difficulty.

I'm reminded of the bunkers on # 18 at GCGC and how well they function.
Yet, their ferocity is not visible from the tee.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'd think that they would fill up like a bathtub in a rain event, if they were built on clay soil.  Maintaining drainage would likely be an issue.

Bryan,

Are you stating that all below grade bunkers fill up like a bathtub in a rain event ?  Nope

How do you explain the abundant existance of below grade bunkers in clay soils ?  Good drainage execution.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
There are some courses in the US that have them, so I don't think they'd absloutely be seen as bunkers-non-grata. On the other hand, I wonder why no one saw fit to bring them over here (I can't think of any place that did) 100 years ago, when they were adopting most everything else? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

You are right it has nothing to do with bunkers. The photo is from 1937 when the 1st Tee was being rebuilt on the Eden Course. They are lifting the turf from the old Tee.


 

[Sean_A]

Anyone who has played Porthcawl will know that if you hit into a bunker you are hoping 1/ you can stand in the bunker, 2/ you have a swing and  3/ you can play in the direction of the hole.
Many times you don't get all three and they are to be avoided at all costs.
And if you do get all three you must resist the temptation to try for too much. The most innocent looking ones are sometimes the most dangerous.
My guess is that if anyone built bunkers like than in this age they would be accused of many things.

Mike,

Isn't that the real problem, that they serve their strategic/tactical purpose too well ?

Patrick

Pots provide a specific solution to the specific problem of sand/sandy areas in windy areas.  Pots rarely exist inland in the UK because they aren't needed.  When built properly, pots aren't anymore difficult to get out of than other bunkers of similar depth.  In fact, often times I think they are easier because of the high quality of sand (assuming one isn't too greedy in their ambitions).  The difficulty is dependent on bunker depth, size of the pot (not many these days which are quite small) angle of the front wall and probably most importantly - the fact that they play far bigger than their actual size because of the gathering effect (again, when built properly). 

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

MM,
Do you know what the workman at the table is doing? Is he squaring off the edges of the turves for installation?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd think that they would fill up like a bathtub in a rain event, if they were built on clay soil.  Maintaining drainage would likely be an issue.

Bryan,

Are you stating that all below grade bunkers fill up like a bathtub in a rain event ?  Nope

How do you explain the abundant existance of below grade bunkers in clay soils ?  Good drainage execution.

Then why did you preclude the use of good drainage in those bunkers ?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jim

You are right it has nothing to do with bunkers. The photo is from 1937 when the 1st Tee was being rebuilt on the Eden Course. They are lifting the turf from the old Tee.


 

I don't care what they are using it for, those are some cool looking bricks of sod!
I think even I could build a good looking tee with that grass.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm not particularly interested one way or another in what bunkers look like, but this thread reminds me that the subject is evergreen/a perennial because there is no other feature in gca so obviously linked (and comparable) to the past, and to the traditions of a game that is so steeped in tradition.  And in that context, I come back to the belief that practically everything those thrifty old Scots did back then was sensible and good for the game -- a game that, and this is important I think, they loved but that they kept in its proper perspective. Where are we going to play this game? On that linksland -- it's not good for growing food.  What will we do with these bunkers and the edges eroding and the sand flying out? Well, we're not going to be spending all our free time and labour messing about with pits in the ground -- so lets face them with stacked sod once and be done with it.  All of which is to say: if you go with big greens and wide fairways and minimal inputs/maintenance and sod-faced bunkers, well then, you simply cannot go wrong!  Of course, if you try to "borrow" instead of "steal outright", that's when the illusion -- i.e. the link to the past -- is shattered.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In another recent  thread on the "Road Hole" there was no mention of the road hole bunker at other courses and how they were constructed.

In order to achieve a semblance of replication, a steep, almost vertical bunker wall has to be constructed.

How did all of the courses accomplish that, especially those courses on clay based soils ?

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